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Dig deeper, Sam. Achievement-oriented people are given to depression both when they fail and when they succeed. If your identity is tied up in your work, then

Dig deeper, Sam. Achievement-oriented people are given to depression both when they fail and when they succeed. If your identity is tied up in your work, then you feel bad about yourself when work isn't going well. That's obvious, and that's the message of this blog post. The implicit message is that you're depressed because you're not succeeding, so get your shit together and succeed and be happy like everyone else. But then if you do succeed, you start to wonder, why did I just spend my youth in this masochistic, narcissistic path, and why the fuck am I not as happy as I was expecting, and is this really all there is in life. This is a classic "achiever in crisis." The problem is that you realize all along you've been doing things that OTHER people wanted -- that is, you've been doing things that make you valuable in society -- perfect summed up in the raison d'etre du jour, "making the world a better place." And nobody stopped you, because who can argue with making the world a better place? (Or being a doctor, or whatever.) But upon reflection, you quickly realize that this was in many ways easier than asking yourself what YOU wanted out of life. I.e. you've pushed aside your innate feelings and desires, whatever they may have been, and replaced them with the external motivation of achievement, under the rationale that you'd be able to "figure it out" after you had "made it". Unfortunately achievers aren't really sure what they want "deep down" because achievement is inherently defined by society, and then after they've "made it" they freak out because they start to wonder if there even is a "deep down" or if they're just a highly educated donkey chasing a carrot. If you talk to e.g. people who've gone through rigorous Ph.D. programs, you'll find a number of them were severely depressed after their defense. It was just kind of a let-down after such a long buildup, and then they started to wonder why they invested the entirety of their twenties into it and question whether that's really what they wanted their life to be. At least before the defense they could have something look forward to, and the various requirements provided a source of manic energy to propel the achiever forward. Anyway I don't think the problem here is "not enough success," and I don't think the solution is having more coffee meetings. Founders need to take a hard look in the mirror and ask themselves why they're doing what they're doing and whether their depression is truly a function of their free cash flow or if there's a deeper dissonance between the founder's feelings and the expectations of society, i.e. the heroic mythology of the founder that Silicon Valley has been inculcating in susceptible teenagers for the last 20 years. Just my 2c. I am not a founder just an observer and aspiring societal psychiatrist. If you want to learn more I highly recommend "The Wisdom of the Enneagram": http://www.amazon.com/Wisdom-Enneagram-Psychological-Spiritual-Personality/dp/0553378201 http://www.amazon.com/Wisdom-Enneagram-Psychological-Spiritu... It looks a lot like astrological pseudoscientific trash but read it and see if things in it resonate with you. Ok back to work.

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marvin 12y ago
Very well formulated and insightful comment. Thanks for taking the time to write this. A lot of ambitious people seem to struggle with this question of external vs. internal motivation - although I think the most successful entrepeneurs don't, because for some of us this motivation is in fact internal. Some can actually say "do what you love/love what you do" and not lie through their teeth. And others are able to treat it in a purely businesslike manner, i.e. "this is a job and it's only temporary". Many others, though, are as you say: Ambitious because external pressures have always told you it is a good idea, and because teachers, parents, professors and peers have always given you recognition for good work - it's a central part of your identity.
rdrdss23 12y ago
After a first reading I felt that it really resonated. However, if you think of people that do persue what THEY want from life, they are often quite miserable too. Asking yourself "what would you do if money wasn't a concern and you had all the time in the world" ends up not being particularly meaningful. People born into wealthy families try to figure out what THEY want out of life, and end they are just as depressed and full of self-doubt. Sure you can spend a year surfing in Hawaii, or painting, or gardening, but they end up feeling like ephemeral distractions (unless you go all out and turn into an adrenalin junky - though I don't know honestly how happy they are). Lasting motivation comes from your interactions with the world - and often "doing things that OTHER people wanted" is (if you're honest with yourself) to a degree "what YOU wanted out of life" .
Swizec 12y ago
As one of those achievers[1] I think it's even worse than you say. I have pretty much made peace with the fact that I am going to be fundamentally miserable for most if not all of my life. The reason why that is, is because even though I never do things just because others want me to do them[2], I am still very much driven by success and achievement. Not because society compels me to achieve, but because there is an internal drive that just will not shut up. Kundera explained it well in Lightness of Being - there is an inner voice that says you have to. You must. Even though you know full well following this path does not make you happy, moving away from that voice makes you even more miserable. Just because you're not following your talents/gifts[3]. When it comes to success vs. failure. Succeeding brings with it doubts in terms of whether you're succeeding rapidly enough, whether there's more you could be doing, whether your goals are high enough. When you're failing, you're failing and failing never feels good. And there's nothing that even compares to the emptiness that comes when you achieve a goal. It's soul crushing. All that work and now you're done ... what can you possibly do with your life now? What else is there? What's the next step? If I could achieve this goal, was it even lofty enough? In the end, I've learned to simply manage my depression and live with it. [1] I think I fall in the camp, it's hard to say, I've never achieved much that the outside world would laud me for, but I tend to behave like achievers do and have been obsessed with success/achievement ever since I can remember [2] ask anyone, I am impossible to motivate externally. Beating me with a stick until I do what you ask would probably work eventually, but that's a tad severe. [3] great Oglaf comic on the topic of talents/gifts wanting to be used: http://oglaf.com/gifted/ http://oglaf.com/gifted/

deleted 12y ago

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marvin 12y ago

Very well formulated and insightful comment. Thanks for taking the time to write this. A lot of ambitious people seem to struggle with this question of external vs. internal motivation - although I think the most successful entrepeneurs don't, because for some of us this motivation is in fact internal. Some can actually say "do what you love/love what you do" and not lie through their teeth. And others are able to treat it in a purely businesslike manner, i.e. "this is a job and it's only temporary". Many others, though, are as you say: Ambitious because external pressures have always told you it is a good idea, and because teachers, parents, professors and peers have always given you recognition for good work - it's a central part of your identity.

rdrdss23 12y ago

After a first reading I felt that it really resonated. However, if you think of people that do persue what THEY want from life, they are often quite miserable too. Asking yourself "what would you do if money wasn't a concern and you had all the time in the world" ends up not being particularly meaningful. People born into wealthy families try to figure out what THEY want out of life, and end they are just as depressed and full of self-doubt. Sure you can spend a year surfing in Hawaii, or painting, or gardening, but they end up feeling like ephemeral distractions (unless you go all out and turn into an adrenalin junky - though I don't know honestly how happy they are). Lasting motivation comes from your interactions with the world - and often "doing things that OTHER people wanted" is (if you're honest with yourself) to a degree "what YOU wanted out of life" .

Swizec 12y ago

As one of those achievers[1] I think it's even worse than you say. I have pretty much made peace with the fact that I am going to be fundamentally miserable for most if not all of my life. The reason why that is, is because even though I never do things just because others want me to do them[2], I am still very much driven by success and achievement. Not because society compels me to achieve, but because there is an internal drive that just will not shut up. Kundera explained it well in Lightness of Being - there is an inner voice that says you have to. You must. Even though you know full well following this path does not make you happy, moving away from that voice makes you even more miserable. Just because you're not following your talents/gifts[3]. When it comes to success vs. failure. Succeeding brings with it doubts in terms of whether you're succeeding rapidly enough, whether there's more you could be doing, whether your goals are high enough. When you're failing, you're failing and failing never feels good. And there's nothing that even compares to the emptiness that comes when you achieve a goal. It's soul crushing. All that work and now you're done ... what can you possibly do with your life now? What else is there? What's the next step? If I could achieve this goal, was it even lofty enough? In the end, I've learned to simply manage my depression and live with it. [1] I think I fall in the camp, it's hard to say, I've never achieved much that the outside world would laud me for, but I tend to behave like achievers do and have been obsessed with success/achievement ever since I can remember [2] ask anyone, I am impossible to motivate externally. Beating me with a stick until I do what you ask would probably work eventually, but that's a tad severe. [3] great Oglaf comic on the topic of talents/gifts wanting to be used: http://oglaf.com/gifted/ http://oglaf.com/gifted/