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I didn't downvote, but I have to wonder what you're threshhold for not being a scam is? What companies will have to accept it, and how long will it have to be

by jnbiche 12y ago

I didn't downvote, but I have to wonder what you're threshhold for not being a scam is? What companies will have to accept it, and how long will it have to be around? I'm pretty amazed that people still think it's a scam when huge companies with massive legal departments are accepting it. That's some pretty extreme skepticism. BTW, there are plenty of easy, legitimate ways to short Bitcoin, but given your extraordinarily high threshold for "non-scam", I won't bother mentioning them. PS: Bitcoins are valuable because people are willing to buy them. Despite what most people think, money is not magic, it's just an agreement.

JohnTHaller 12y ago
Huge companies with massive legal departments don't accept bitcoin. They contract with smaller VC-funded startups to accept it and assume the risk and pay the large retailer in cash at sale time. The large retailers neither accept nor hold bitcoin directly, nor should they (as a merchant, you don't want to be holding something that loses 10% of its value during your business hours as bitcoin did today). The large retailers merely get to enjoy capitalizing on bitcoin as a purchase method.
- ThomPete 12y ago
  Yeah and the internet was just a temporary trend. People always overestimate the short term consequences and underestimate the long term consequences of such technologies. Currency is only one way to express the protocol.
- SilasX 12y ago
  That seems like a non-standard usage of "accept". Does everyone who accepts a payment method while hedging it also not count as another vendor who accepts it? If someone accepts PayPal while insuring against the possibility of not being paid "not accept PayPal"? If a non-US vendor uses forward/option contracts to maintain cash flow in the local currency, do they "not accept" USD?
  - pessimizer 12y ago
    This doesn't count as insurance, though, because no risk is ever actually held, it's farmed out. The most anti-bitcoin person in the world will accept USD that has been converted from bitcoin by an entity that is actually taking the risk, because by necessity it needs to hold lots of bitcoin reserves just to do business.
    - SilasX 12y ago
      Just like how "The most anti-USD person in the world will accept Yen that has been converted from USD..."
  - baddox 12y ago
    If a company keeps most of its money in a bank, do they "not accept" USD?
phusion 12y ago
This ^^^ I chuckled a little bit when he said hashes people are willing to pay hundreds of dollars for... annd those dollars are printed on paper with old dead guys on it. Ahh the world this guy lives in must be an interesting one.
- Ologn 12y ago
  A century ago to the year, the second biggest economy in the world, Germany, had people saying the exact same thing about the Papiermark as you're saying. Anyone curious can go to the Wikipedia entry on Papiermark to see how that all eventually ended.
- chillingeffect 12y ago
  it's intriguing to me that no one has pointed out the inherent value of BitCoin: You can commit nearly anonymous transactions over long distances with it. It's value over international currencies is in proportion to the size of the black market transacted via BtC. There are many people out there who don't try to get rich, they simply mine a handful to buy small amounts of drugs on the internet. The "convenience" of that service raises the utility and value of BtC over e.g. dollars. Of course, I say nearly b/c a dedicated sleuth could investigate a transaction, but ask yourself as a practical matter, will federales go after an 18-year buying a gram of weed via BtC? of course not. The complexity of the BtC transacation obscures such small transactions well into the realm of "safety."
  - moe 12y ago
    I don't understand why people keep trying to frame BTC as some sorts of criminals tool. Fast, nearly anonymous and free long distance transactions are a pretty big deal for non-criminals as well. Did you ever try transferring a bigger amount of money to a country outside the EU and US? You'd be astonished by the fees and timescales involved. Services like Western Union and Moneygram are not just used by criminals.
    - a8000 12y ago
      Fast international money transfer is something that is already handled very well for those that truly need it. I know for a fact that the european central bank handles large volume transactions in a matter of seconds if not less. There is really no reason why traditional banks could not offer significantly shorter processing times for the majority of their services, it is just not in their interest to do so.
Ologn 12y ago
> people still think it's a scam when huge companies with massive legal departments are accepting it. Sub-prime real estate was a scam. Huge companies with massive legal departments protected themselves from the illegal part of the scam - all those loan officers telling people to lie on their loan applications. In fact these banks got their lobbyists to get them TARP bailouts after the scam had run its course. Banks are willing to trade subprime "liar loans" once legally insulated, so big companies willing to deal with Bitcoin doesn't really mean much. I didn't say it was impossible to short Bitcoins. They are not FX traded alongside the dollar, euro, yen etc. though. The central question is, why do Bitcoins have value? Why did subprime real estate loans, pets.com stock and Dutch tulip blubs have value? Actually, both these things were hypothetically more valuable than Bitcoins. Bitcoins are worthless. When the price of a Bitcoin drops below $100, are people here going to learn a lesson about how value works? I don't think they will. That's the thing - Bitcoin will crash, and those talking it up here won't have learned a thing. If they did, these scams (subprime, pets.com stock, dutch Tulip Bulbs) couldn't keep popping up over time suckering people in. People have no concept of the relation of price to value, and thus are easily fooled.
- jnbiche 12y ago
  At what point would you accept that Bitcoin is not a scam? What percentage of the Fortune 500 accepting it? How many years? 10 years? 20 years? Can you give a number? I mean, at least Prof. Bitcorn gave us a date. An open ended "it's a scam and you people are going to learn...someday" is not very useful. And speaking of value, after years of paying $30 a pop to receive a few thousand dollars from Europe in 3-5 business days, being able to effortlessly send a few digits, pay a few cents, and receive that money in less than an hour is...highly valuable.
  - voltagex_ 12y ago
    This is tangential to your point, but I recently did a international money transfer to a friend. The fee was $40AUD for <$1000USD sent. They received it in a day and a half. For Bitcoin I need to: * Get the requisite amount of bitcoins, plus a percentage extra to protect against fluctuations (BTC crashed is not a valid excuse for non-payment of rent) * Help said friend set up a BTC wallet, plus security * Find a trustworthy person willing to exchange USD for BTC at some agreed value * Send friend to person and hope the exchange goes as planned. I'd love to use BTC in place of IMT but it's just not easy enough yet.

by jnbiche 12y ago

JohnTHaller 12y ago

Huge companies with massive legal departments don't accept bitcoin. They contract with smaller VC-funded startups to accept it and assume the risk and pay the large retailer in cash at sale time. The large retailers neither accept nor hold bitcoin directly, nor should they (as a merchant, you don't want to be holding something that loses 10% of its value during your business hours as bitcoin did today). The large retailers merely get to enjoy capitalizing on bitcoin as a purchase method.

ThomPete 12y ago
Yeah and the internet was just a temporary trend. People always overestimate the short term consequences and underestimate the long term consequences of such technologies. Currency is only one way to express the protocol.
SilasX 12y ago
That seems like a non-standard usage of "accept". Does everyone who accepts a payment method while hedging it also not count as another vendor who accepts it? If someone accepts PayPal while insuring against the possibility of not being paid "not accept PayPal"? If a non-US vendor uses forward/option contracts to maintain cash flow in the local currency, do they "not accept" USD?
- pessimizer 12y ago
  This doesn't count as insurance, though, because no risk is ever actually held, it's farmed out. The most anti-bitcoin person in the world will accept USD that has been converted from bitcoin by an entity that is actually taking the risk, because by necessity it needs to hold lots of bitcoin reserves just to do business.
  - SilasX 12y ago
    Just like how "The most anti-USD person in the world will accept Yen that has been converted from USD..."
- baddox 12y ago
  If a company keeps most of its money in a bank, do they "not accept" USD?

phusion 12y ago

This ^^^ I chuckled a little bit when he said hashes people are willing to pay hundreds of dollars for... annd those dollars are printed on paper with old dead guys on it. Ahh the world this guy lives in must be an interesting one.

Ologn 12y ago
A century ago to the year, the second biggest economy in the world, Germany, had people saying the exact same thing about the Papiermark as you're saying. Anyone curious can go to the Wikipedia entry on Papiermark to see how that all eventually ended.
chillingeffect 12y ago
it's intriguing to me that no one has pointed out the inherent value of BitCoin: You can commit nearly anonymous transactions over long distances with it. It's value over international currencies is in proportion to the size of the black market transacted via BtC. There are many people out there who don't try to get rich, they simply mine a handful to buy small amounts of drugs on the internet. The "convenience" of that service raises the utility and value of BtC over e.g. dollars. Of course, I say nearly b/c a dedicated sleuth could investigate a transaction, but ask yourself as a practical matter, will federales go after an 18-year buying a gram of weed via BtC? of course not. The complexity of the BtC transacation obscures such small transactions well into the realm of "safety."
- moe 12y ago
  I don't understand why people keep trying to frame BTC as some sorts of criminals tool. Fast, nearly anonymous and free long distance transactions are a pretty big deal for non-criminals as well. Did you ever try transferring a bigger amount of money to a country outside the EU and US? You'd be astonished by the fees and timescales involved. Services like Western Union and Moneygram are not just used by criminals.
  - a8000 12y ago
    Fast international money transfer is something that is already handled very well for those that truly need it. I know for a fact that the european central bank handles large volume transactions in a matter of seconds if not less. There is really no reason why traditional banks could not offer significantly shorter processing times for the majority of their services, it is just not in their interest to do so.

Ologn 12y ago

> people still think it's a scam when huge companies with massive legal departments are accepting it. Sub-prime real estate was a scam. Huge companies with massive legal departments protected themselves from the illegal part of the scam - all those loan officers telling people to lie on their loan applications. In fact these banks got their lobbyists to get them TARP bailouts after the scam had run its course. Banks are willing to trade subprime "liar loans" once legally insulated, so big companies willing to deal with Bitcoin doesn't really mean much. I didn't say it was impossible to short Bitcoins. They are not FX traded alongside the dollar, euro, yen etc. though. The central question is, why do Bitcoins have value? Why did subprime real estate loans, pets.com stock and Dutch tulip blubs have value? Actually, both these things were hypothetically more valuable than Bitcoins. Bitcoins are worthless. When the price of a Bitcoin drops below $100, are people here going to learn a lesson about how value works? I don't think they will. That's the thing - Bitcoin will crash, and those talking it up here won't have learned a thing. If they did, these scams (subprime, pets.com stock, dutch Tulip Bulbs) couldn't keep popping up over time suckering people in. People have no concept of the relation of price to value, and thus are easily fooled.

jnbiche 12y ago
At what point would you accept that Bitcoin is not a scam? What percentage of the Fortune 500 accepting it? How many years? 10 years? 20 years? Can you give a number? I mean, at least Prof. Bitcorn gave us a date. An open ended "it's a scam and you people are going to learn...someday" is not very useful. And speaking of value, after years of paying $30 a pop to receive a few thousand dollars from Europe in 3-5 business days, being able to effortlessly send a few digits, pay a few cents, and receive that money in less than an hour is...highly valuable.
- voltagex_ 12y ago
  This is tangential to your point, but I recently did a international money transfer to a friend. The fee was $40AUD for <$1000USD sent. They received it in a day and a half. For Bitcoin I need to: * Get the requisite amount of bitcoins, plus a percentage extra to protect against fluctuations (BTC crashed is not a valid excuse for non-payment of rent) * Help said friend set up a BTC wallet, plus security * Find a trustworthy person willing to exchange USD for BTC at some agreed value * Send friend to person and hope the exchange goes as planned. I'd love to use BTC in place of IMT but it's just not easy enough yet.