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"Tesla will not initiate patent lawsuits against anyone who, in good faith, wants to use our technology." What exactly does that little "in good faith" clause

by smackfu 12y ago

"Tesla will not initiate patent lawsuits against anyone who, in good faith, wants to use our technology." What exactly does that little "in good faith" clause mean in there?

oddevan 12y ago
Agreed. I was hoping for a link to a BSD- or Creative Commons-style license, but this was only a reason for not [suing anyone] using the patents (as welcome as that is). [edited for clarification]
McGlockenshire 12y ago
Until clarified, it kind of reads like "independently came up with the same idea, but did not research patents or reach out to us for licensing first."
- chc 12y ago
  That definitely doesn't sound right to me, because it says "wants to use our technology." That implies awareness that one is using Tesla's technology, because otherwise this promise wouldn't mean anything since people who don't believe they're using Tesla's technology wouldn't think they fall under it anyway. I am having trouble working out what it does mean, though. Based on the rest of the article, my best guess is "Does not act in a predatory manner toward other carmakers, such as initiating patent lawsuits of their own." Basically, I think Musk is trying to say that Tesla are willing to cooperate toward the goal of making electric cars a bigger presence if you are, but they don't want people using their patents in conjunction with underhanded tactics to try and monopolize the market.
- dnautics 12y ago
  I think it reads more generally, as in "for any purpose whatsoever except patent litigation".
- oddevan 12y ago
  I feel like (again, until clarified) it's more broad than that. "Wants to use our technology" certainly implies to me that I can seek out Tesla's patent applications and attempt to build using them.
baddox 12y ago
If Tesla doesn't initiate patent lawsuits, then the usage was in good faith.
criley2 12y ago
People are optimistic but I'm with you. For example, using the Supercharger network requires that the automotive company offer energy for free for life to customers, and charge up front at the point of sale for all energy requirements for the life of the vehicle. That's Musk's business model and is enforcing it for anyone who wants to use his "open infrastructure". Which is bollocks to me: only wealthy people buying extremely expensive vehicles are going to want to prepay for a decade or two's worth of electricity. It means BMW and Audi will Supercharge, but Toyota and Ford? You can't ask budget customers to prepay a decade's worth of travel costs. You can't competitively and aggressively price a vehicle like that. I imagine "good faith" means "follow OUR rules for the industry", which makes me sad. I'd like to see things be a bit more open than that, and I have very little doubt that this "standard" will be duplicated by companies unwilling to play by wealthy rules.
- JimmaDaRustla 12y ago
  Only on HN I would find a comment which translates the act of freeing engineering patents into forcing business models upon other companies...
  - criley2 12y ago
    Only on HN will I find people who think saying "we won't sue you if you follow our rules" equates to "freeing engineering patents". There's nothing "free" about Musk being the decider on whether or not you get sued.
- gambiting 12y ago
  Well it will be simple - you can either buy a vehicle with a "supercharger" pack which is $X more,or you you can buy one without but then you can't use the superchargers. Then we will see what the market chooses - it might not be as clear as you think.
- toomuchtodo 12y ago
  > but Toyota and Ford? You can't ask budget customers to prepay a decade's worth of travel costs. A 2014 Ford Focus gets ~40mpg. Assuming 12,000 miles/year, that's ~300 gallons of fuel. Assume, conservatively, $3/gallon. That's ~$900/year for fuel, or $2700 over 3 years. The cost to get supercharger access from Tesla is $2000 at time of purchase ($2500 after delivery). To finance $2000 at even a ridiculously high 10% over 3 years is $64.53/month, fully loaded principal and interest. This is already less than most people pay per month for gasoline/petrol. And that's THREE YEARS. After that, to fuel at Superchargers is essentially free (already amortized).
notahacker 12y ago
"In good faith" means that when you write to Tesla asking to license their patented technology at no cost as promised by their CEO, their lawyers write back saying "OK, if as a sign of good faith you also agree to license your patents to Tesla at no cost".
vbuterin 12y ago
Sounds like "go ahead, but if you start trying to sue us then we'll sue you"

by smackfu 12y ago

"Tesla will not initiate patent lawsuits against anyone who, in good faith, wants to use our technology." What exactly does that little "in good faith" clause mean in there?

oddevan 12y ago

Agreed. I was hoping for a link to a BSD- or Creative Commons-style license, but this was only a reason for not [suing anyone] using the patents (as welcome as that is). [edited for clarification]

McGlockenshire 12y ago

Until clarified, it kind of reads like "independently came up with the same idea, but did not research patents or reach out to us for licensing first."

chc 12y ago
That definitely doesn't sound right to me, because it says "wants to use our technology." That implies awareness that one is using Tesla's technology, because otherwise this promise wouldn't mean anything since people who don't believe they're using Tesla's technology wouldn't think they fall under it anyway. I am having trouble working out what it does mean, though. Based on the rest of the article, my best guess is "Does not act in a predatory manner toward other carmakers, such as initiating patent lawsuits of their own." Basically, I think Musk is trying to say that Tesla are willing to cooperate toward the goal of making electric cars a bigger presence if you are, but they don't want people using their patents in conjunction with underhanded tactics to try and monopolize the market.
dnautics 12y ago
I think it reads more generally, as in "for any purpose whatsoever except patent litigation".
oddevan 12y ago
I feel like (again, until clarified) it's more broad than that. "Wants to use our technology" certainly implies to me that I can seek out Tesla's patent applications and attempt to build using them.

baddox 12y ago

If Tesla doesn't initiate patent lawsuits, then the usage was in good faith.

criley2 12y ago

People are optimistic but I'm with you. For example, using the Supercharger network requires that the automotive company offer energy for free for life to customers, and charge up front at the point of sale for all energy requirements for the life of the vehicle. That's Musk's business model and is enforcing it for anyone who wants to use his "open infrastructure". Which is bollocks to me: only wealthy people buying extremely expensive vehicles are going to want to prepay for a decade or two's worth of electricity. It means BMW and Audi will Supercharge, but Toyota and Ford? You can't ask budget customers to prepay a decade's worth of travel costs. You can't competitively and aggressively price a vehicle like that. I imagine "good faith" means "follow OUR rules for the industry", which makes me sad. I'd like to see things be a bit more open than that, and I have very little doubt that this "standard" will be duplicated by companies unwilling to play by wealthy rules.

JimmaDaRustla 12y ago
Only on HN I would find a comment which translates the act of freeing engineering patents into forcing business models upon other companies...
- criley2 12y ago
  Only on HN will I find people who think saying "we won't sue you if you follow our rules" equates to "freeing engineering patents". There's nothing "free" about Musk being the decider on whether or not you get sued.
gambiting 12y ago
Well it will be simple - you can either buy a vehicle with a "supercharger" pack which is $X more,or you you can buy one without but then you can't use the superchargers. Then we will see what the market chooses - it might not be as clear as you think.
toomuchtodo 12y ago
> but Toyota and Ford? You can't ask budget customers to prepay a decade's worth of travel costs. A 2014 Ford Focus gets ~40mpg. Assuming 12,000 miles/year, that's ~300 gallons of fuel. Assume, conservatively, $3/gallon. That's ~$900/year for fuel, or $2700 over 3 years. The cost to get supercharger access from Tesla is $2000 at time of purchase ($2500 after delivery). To finance $2000 at even a ridiculously high 10% over 3 years is $64.53/month, fully loaded principal and interest. This is already less than most people pay per month for gasoline/petrol. And that's THREE YEARS. After that, to fuel at Superchargers is essentially free (already amortized).

notahacker 12y ago

"In good faith" means that when you write to Tesla asking to license their patented technology at no cost as promised by their CEO, their lawyers write back saying "OK, if as a sign of good faith you also agree to license your patents to Tesla at no cost".

vbuterin 12y ago

Sounds like "go ahead, but if you start trying to sue us then we'll sue you"