4 ms·

The reviews I've read about the existing Firefox OS phones, which have reportedly cost well over $25, have not been very encouraging. Pretty much all of them ha

by Pacabel 12y ago

The reviews I've read about the existing Firefox OS phones, which have reportedly cost well over $25, have not been very encouraging. Pretty much all of them have pointed out that the hardware is quite poor, and this results in a rather bad user experience. Even considering how rapidly the cost of mobile hardware has been decreasing, what will prevent a similarly negative user experience on these cheaper Firefox OS devices? While the ideological benefits of HTML5/JavaScript/CSS "apps" are often touted, we've yet to see anything truly remarkable done using such technologies. At best, we've only really seen clones of existing Android and iOS apps, but these generally feel less responsive and less capable than their native counterparts. If Firefox OS only supports these kind of non-native apps, how is it supposed to truly compete with Android, iOS and the other mobile platforms that support these HTML5/JavaScript/CSS "apps" just fine, but also offer far more choice and capabilities to developers in the form of real native apps? And one other thing that I rarely see considered by the advocates of Firefox OS is how we're seeing more and more used iOS and Android mobile devices ending up in developing nations. They tend to be quite affordable and usable, even if they are somewhat outdated. Why would people in developing nations pay for a new Firefox OS phone, when they can get a used Android or iOS phone that may very well perform better than the Firefox OS phone, while offering a wider selection of apps, while also costing roughly the same? Can you address these concerns?

Touche 12y ago
How is a Java code running in a VM any more native than web technology?
- Pacabel 12y ago
  I wouldn't say that it necessarily is. But Android does offer the NDK and the upcoming ART runtime, which get far closer to native code than what we're seeing from HTML5/JavaScript/CSS.
  - Touche 12y ago
    ART is just a replacement runtime for Davlik. It's still no more "native" than a JavaScript VM. The world "native" has been bended to mean practically nothing at this point, and instead is used to differentiate "good" platforms from "bad" ones.
- easytiger 12y ago
  JIT
gz5 12y ago
I believe these phones are aimed at two market segments: 1. Folks will buy these instead of computers - many of whom don't have computers today. Meaning, their first computer will be a mobile one. 2. Cost-conscious/value-conscious people that would prefer a cheaper new phone over a used used phone (even if slightly cheaper from the perspective of the developed world). So market (1) doesn't really need killer web apps. The apps are already there; the developed world consumes them via PCs, Macs and tablets. Market (2) is interesting, especially if new Androids come down market, but I would not underestimate the impact that latent demand from these mega-markets can have on HTML5 apps, many that btw don't even exist today as native apps because they are more relevant in a developing nation.
rhelmer 12y ago
FirefoxOS has lower resource requirements than Android - for example this $25 device has only 128MB of RAM. FxOS (an it's app ecosystem) is still very young (1.3 just came out, and the first release came out at the end of 2012). I'm positive that we'll continue to see dramatic performance improvements as well as feature parity with the dominant platforms, along with the app ecosystem continuing to mature. On the app developer side, making apps requires no specialized development environments or knowing anything beyond web technologies (HTML/JS/CSS), which dramatically lowers the bar for making apps. I'm not sure what counts as "truly remarkable", personally I am pretty impressed by games like Cut the Rope on my FirefoxOS phone. I also carry and regularly use an outdated Android device that has very similar specs, and it's not particularly responsive. More apps are available, but the average quality is not very high.
soapdog 12y ago
I could write a whole essay on this topic, believe me... so lets go with the short version. First is that most of the phones out there are running Firefox OS 1.1 and this version is not as snappy as Firefox OS 1.3 which is probably the next version those phones will upgrade to. Firefox OS 1.3 is much faster and solved a lot of bugs. HTML5 is the native thing in Firefox OS. All apps and parts of the system itself are built with it. Thats how good it is when we build Telephony stuff in Javascript. The thing is that Firefox OS is also the easiest platform to develop for. Its much easier to develop for web technologies than it is to learn ObjC and Java. That being said, lots of new developers are coming on board are still learning the best practices so we see a lot of apps that could be better just like you see a lot of pages that could be better on the web. The Gecko engine and its WebAPI provide the developer with all that is needed to create good quality apps but since this is our first year, some of our third party developers are still learning the trade. Its getting a lot better. There are 8 million web developers in the world. They could all be shipping apps on Firefox OS if they wanted to. Its free and we provide all the docs, also, its quite easy to develop for Firefox OS first and then pass thru Cordova or similar tech and deploy on other platforms. We believe that the web will win in the long run and that a "web first" mentality will emerge where people will opt to go with an HTML5 solution instead of ObjC/Java/C# threesome. I invite you all to explore our rich APIs at https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/WebAPI https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/WebAPI and see how every time we feel that something can't be done in HTML5 we try to come with a proposed standard. Its this type of evolution of web standards that moves the web forward in all platforms such as desktops, laptops, TVs and more. As for used cellphones being sold, that doesn't really count in the larger scheme of things. Specially when dealing with Apple. As an exercise try picking an iPhone 3GS and installing random stuff from the App Store... its very hard because developers in those platforms are always developing for the new shiny and forget old customers with outdated hardware very easily. Now try installing an old web browser, something like the same Firefox that was available at that time and browsing the web. It will work because thats how web stuff is made, its made to keep working or degrade nicely. This means that what we call "open web apps" not only are easier to build but they can be used by more people with different hardware and thats why we have the world wide web and not some strange silo such as compuserve... Think of yourself in five years: What type of world do you want? A world where web standards and engines have evolved to the point where you can do all you wish as a developer without moving away from web technologies and you're free to run your app in different platforms and systems or a world where you need to ask "pretty please" to a company in the north region of california every time you want to ship an app? Sorry for making this long...

by Pacabel 12y ago

Touche 12y ago

How is a Java code running in a VM any more native than web technology?

Pacabel 12y ago
I wouldn't say that it necessarily is. But Android does offer the NDK and the upcoming ART runtime, which get far closer to native code than what we're seeing from HTML5/JavaScript/CSS.
- Touche 12y ago
  ART is just a replacement runtime for Davlik. It's still no more "native" than a JavaScript VM. The world "native" has been bended to mean practically nothing at this point, and instead is used to differentiate "good" platforms from "bad" ones.
easytiger 12y ago
JIT

gz5 12y ago

I believe these phones are aimed at two market segments: 1. Folks will buy these instead of computers - many of whom don't have computers today. Meaning, their first computer will be a mobile one. 2. Cost-conscious/value-conscious people that would prefer a cheaper new phone over a used used phone (even if slightly cheaper from the perspective of the developed world). So market (1) doesn't really need killer web apps. The apps are already there; the developed world consumes them via PCs, Macs and tablets. Market (2) is interesting, especially if new Androids come down market, but I would not underestimate the impact that latent demand from these mega-markets can have on HTML5 apps, many that btw don't even exist today as native apps because they are more relevant in a developing nation.

rhelmer 12y ago

FirefoxOS has lower resource requirements than Android - for example this $25 device has only 128MB of RAM. FxOS (an it's app ecosystem) is still very young (1.3 just came out, and the first release came out at the end of 2012). I'm positive that we'll continue to see dramatic performance improvements as well as feature parity with the dominant platforms, along with the app ecosystem continuing to mature. On the app developer side, making apps requires no specialized development environments or knowing anything beyond web technologies (HTML/JS/CSS), which dramatically lowers the bar for making apps. I'm not sure what counts as "truly remarkable", personally I am pretty impressed by games like Cut the Rope on my FirefoxOS phone. I also carry and regularly use an outdated Android device that has very similar specs, and it's not particularly responsive. More apps are available, but the average quality is not very high.

soapdog 12y ago

I could write a whole essay on this topic, believe me... so lets go with the short version. First is that most of the phones out there are running Firefox OS 1.1 and this version is not as snappy as Firefox OS 1.3 which is probably the next version those phones will upgrade to. Firefox OS 1.3 is much faster and solved a lot of bugs. HTML5 is the native thing in Firefox OS. All apps and parts of the system itself are built with it. Thats how good it is when we build Telephony stuff in Javascript. The thing is that Firefox OS is also the easiest platform to develop for. Its much easier to develop for web technologies than it is to learn ObjC and Java. That being said, lots of new developers are coming on board are still learning the best practices so we see a lot of apps that could be better just like you see a lot of pages that could be better on the web. The Gecko engine and its WebAPI provide the developer with all that is needed to create good quality apps but since this is our first year, some of our third party developers are still learning the trade. Its getting a lot better. There are 8 million web developers in the world. They could all be shipping apps on Firefox OS if they wanted to. Its free and we provide all the docs, also, its quite easy to develop for Firefox OS first and then pass thru Cordova or similar tech and deploy on other platforms. We believe that the web will win in the long run and that a "web first" mentality will emerge where people will opt to go with an HTML5 solution instead of ObjC/Java/C# threesome. I invite you all to explore our rich APIs at https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/WebAPI https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/WebAPI and see how every time we feel that something can't be done in HTML5 we try to come with a proposed standard. Its this type of evolution of web standards that moves the web forward in all platforms such as desktops, laptops, TVs and more. As for used cellphones being sold, that doesn't really count in the larger scheme of things. Specially when dealing with Apple. As an exercise try picking an iPhone 3GS and installing random stuff from the App Store... its very hard because developers in those platforms are always developing for the new shiny and forget old customers with outdated hardware very easily. Now try installing an old web browser, something like the same Firefox that was available at that time and browsing the web. It will work because thats how web stuff is made, its made to keep working or degrade nicely. This means that what we call "open web apps" not only are easier to build but they can be used by more people with different hardware and thats why we have the world wide web and not some strange silo such as compuserve... Think of yourself in five years: What type of world do you want? A world where web standards and engines have evolved to the point where you can do all you wish as a developer without moving away from web technologies and you're free to run your app in different platforms and systems or a world where you need to ask "pretty please" to a company in the north region of california every time you want to ship an app? Sorry for making this long...