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So, as I've alluded to elsewhere, the thing to remember about P vs NP is that you can solve NP problems very quickly, but it takes NP time to verify that the so
by jballanc 17y ago
So, as I've alluded to elsewhere, the thing to remember about P vs NP is that you can solve NP problems very quickly, but it takes NP time to verify that the solution is correct. In other words, you can walk a traveling salesman to all the houses in the time it takes to walk to all the houses (that's a solution), but in order to verify that the path you walked was the shortest, you'd have walk all the possible paths (or at least, walk them until they were longer than the original path you walked, which is part of how heuristic methods of solving the problem work).
The way this works with proteins is assuming that proteins fold to a conformation that is a global minimum. For any given combination of atoms, you would have to consider all possible conformations (which, as you point out, can more easily be expressed in terms of pair-wise and higher-order interactions). This is the classic NP-complete, traveling-salesman type problem. Now, not all proteins fold to a global energy minimum, but many or most do. So really, whether protein folding is P or NP depends on what you mean by the "protein folding problem".
If, by "protein folding problem", you mean determining the global energy minimum for any given chain of amino acids, then yes, this is NP. However, what Levinthal realized (with his paradox) was that if this was how proteins actually folded, it would take more than the age of the universe for a single protein to fold. This is even more paradoxical when you consider that most proteins fold on the millisecond to microsecond time scale. In other words, nature isn't solving an NP problem.
If, by "protein folding problem", you mean figuring out how a protein reaches its final conformation, then this is where the funnel comes in. Think of a protein on a surface in conformation space. Each spatial arrangement of atoms represents a different point in space. The surface represents the region of space that is accessible to the protein at a given energy. So, at high energy, the protein can wiggle around pretty much at will. All conformation space is open to it. However, as you lower the energy, fewer and fewer conformations are energetically allowed (that is, the protein no longer has enough energy to break certain hydrogen bonds or ionic interactions). Eventually, you lower the energy enough, and you find the global energy minimum.
Where this gets tricky is that there could be "traps" in the funnel; local energy minima that the protein can't escape from. If the protein gets caught in one of these traps, then it hasn't solved the NP problem of finding the global energy minimum. What's remarkable about proteins, however, is that the path they do follow (the one that's kinetically favorable) almost always avoids these traps. So, the protein is solving a P problem (finding the steepest path down the funnel), but in doing so also solves an NP problem (finding the global minimum).
If you think about it then, it's actually the funnel that has solved the NP problem (or rather, turned it into a P problem). This funnel is constructed by the laws of physics as they pertain to proteins, and it seems as though the unique properties of the 20 amino acids that make up proteins are the key to this NP to P conversion. Now, do I think this means that P = NP? No. The protein folding funnel is a heuristic, just like any other. Just because proteins usually find the global energy minimum, doesn't mean they always do. To absolutely, positively verify that they are at their global minimum, you still have to solve an NP hard problem.
- jdale27 17y agothe thing to remember about P vs NP is that you can solve NP problems very quickly, but it takes NP time to verify that the solution is correct. I think you have it backwards. A problem is in NP if the solution can be verified in (deterministic) polynomial time. But (as far as we know) finding the solution may take much longer. For example, the statement of TSP as a decision problem is: "Given these distances between the cities, is there a closed tour of length less than K?" If someone hands you a proposed solution -- a list of the cities, in the order you should visit them -- it is easy to (a) verify that the list contains all cities, and (b) the length of the tour is less than the required K. That is why TSP is in NP. I didn't really follow the rest of your comment, so I'm not sure what bearing this has on your ideas on protein folding.
- jballanc 17y agoI may have my terminology backward. (I am a computational biologist, not a mathematician.) I think we're saying the same thing, though. Given that a protein folds to a particular conformation (3-D arrangement of atoms in space), you should be able to verify that a specific folding pathway is valid for getting there. However, without knowing ahead of time what the folded conformation is, determining the lowest energy conformation would require trying all possible conformations. So, yeah, I think I've got the terminology backward, but the point remains. Nature can solve protein folding very quickly (depends on kinetics), but to know whether the fold is the best (depends on thermodynamics) requires trying all possible folds.
- jdale27 17y agodetermining the lowest energy conformation would require trying all possible conformations I apologize if it seems like I'm arguing over semantics, but from the computer science perspective, solving the protein folding problem (as opposed to approximating it) means finding an algorithm that does give the lowest energy conformation, without (in order for it to be tractable) trying all conformations. In some formulation of protein folding that is NP-complete, your statement (require[s] trying all possible conformations) is tantamount to P!=NP. So I'm guessing you don't have a proof of that. ;) I admit that this is weak reasoning, but consider an analogy from computational biology: the Needleman-Wunsch algorithm for finding the optimal global alignment between two sequences. There are exponentially many possible alignments. Through the magic of dynamic programming, Needleman-Wunsch guarantees us the optimal alignment without trying all of them (it works in polynomial time). We can't rule out the possibility that some similarly clever algorithm can do the same for protein folding. Now, Needleman-Wunsch works with respect to a scoring function that happens to make the problem tractable. In the case of protein folding, we'd have to ensure that the energy function we're optimizing with whatever clever algorithm we come up with is close enough to reality for the results to be useful to biologists.