4 ms·

As far as I can tell, the main issue here (ignoring jabs about the NSA, M$, etc.) is the difference between a warrant and a subpoena. US law enforcement would l

As far as I can tell, the main issue here (ignoring jabs about the NSA, M$, etc.) is the difference between a warrant and a subpoena. US law enforcement would like to have their cake and eat it too, using a novel warrant-subpoena hybrid. With a warrant, law enforcement officers are the ones that search and seize the documents or data outlined in the search warrant. In a subpoena, the party being served is compelled to produce the documents themselves and testify in court. In this particular case, it seems obvious that a warrant is inapplicable, since US law enforcement officers don't have the authority to seize Microsoft-controlled data located on servers in Ireland. If Microsoft had instead been served with a subpoena, they would be required to hand over any documents that they had access to, regardless of the data's physical location. However, there are strategic advantages (for law enforcement) to favor warrants, since they're much harder to challenge, and that treaty obligations with foreign countries might restrict the kinds of data that can be retrieved from overseas servers.

Fuxy 12y ago
This is probably one of the few situations where I think Microsoft is right and if they want the data they should abide by Irish law. If it's that hard to get the necessary paperwork done for this they should fix their system not complain to the courts that it takes to long.
- merrua 12y ago
  Especially if they want to keep non-USA clients who have to obey different laws with their own businesses data.
  - narrator 12y ago
    American institutions truly think their jurisdiction is global. Did you hear the one about the NYPD cops that showed up in different parts of the world demanding the governments in various jurisdictions respect them? (https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20140107/21020425797/posting-nypd-officers-around-world-found-to-be-waste-embarrassment.shtml https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20140107/21020425797/posti...)
    - deleted 12y ago
      [deleted]
    - wazoox 12y ago
      And the BNP bank fined $ 10 billions for not respecting US law while doing operations between foreign countries (under the preposterous argument that if you use US dollar for a transaction anywhere in the world, it must respect US laws). http://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/may/30/bnp-paribas-faces-10bn-fine-us-sanctions-investigation http://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/may/30/bnp-paribas-...
      - gambiting 12y ago
        Yup. My friend's dad had his UK account(!!!!) frozen on request of USA government because he was doing business with Cuba(trading cigars). He has never ever been to USA,and the money being transferred wasn't going through US either. It took 6 months before whichever US agency finished their investigation why a UK-citizen would be buying Cuban cigars, and they "allowed" the account to be unfrozen. Absolutely unacceptable if you ask me.
      - milesskorpen 12y ago
        The transactions WERE going through the US, which is why the US government had jurisdiction.
        wazoox 12y ago
        Absolutely not. The US courts used the argument that in last resort a US clearing house _may_ have to survey the transaction because it was in US$. However not a single dollar went through the US.
        jessaustin 12y ago
        I'm puzzled by this: On top of the potentially huge fine, BNP Paribas could suffer a temporary ban on processing dollar transactions, a business that is essential to the operations of an international bank. Are USA officials able to enforce these sorts of restrictions on e.g. the sidewalk moneychangers one finds in any developing nation? There are more dollars (both physical and in ledger books) overseas than in the USA. At what point does a bank in another country become vulnerable to this sort of restriction? Are officers going to show up outside the bank and yell "give us all your dollars!"?
Elhana 12y ago
The issue here is what happens when China does the same and ask Microsoft to hand over data stored in US for US customer? I bet US Gov will be furious. What if every country starts doing this?

Fuxy 12y ago

This is probably one of the few situations where I think Microsoft is right and if they want the data they should abide by Irish law. If it's that hard to get the necessary paperwork done for this they should fix their system not complain to the courts that it takes to long.

merrua 12y ago
Especially if they want to keep non-USA clients who have to obey different laws with their own businesses data.
- narrator 12y ago
  American institutions truly think their jurisdiction is global. Did you hear the one about the NYPD cops that showed up in different parts of the world demanding the governments in various jurisdictions respect them? (https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20140107/21020425797/posting-nypd-officers-around-world-found-to-be-waste-embarrassment.shtml https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20140107/21020425797/posti...)
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
  - wazoox 12y ago
    And the BNP bank fined $ 10 billions for not respecting US law while doing operations between foreign countries (under the preposterous argument that if you use US dollar for a transaction anywhere in the world, it must respect US laws). http://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/may/30/bnp-paribas-faces-10bn-fine-us-sanctions-investigation http://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/may/30/bnp-paribas-...
    - gambiting 12y ago
      Yup. My friend's dad had his UK account(!!!!) frozen on request of USA government because he was doing business with Cuba(trading cigars). He has never ever been to USA,and the money being transferred wasn't going through US either. It took 6 months before whichever US agency finished their investigation why a UK-citizen would be buying Cuban cigars, and they "allowed" the account to be unfrozen. Absolutely unacceptable if you ask me.
    - milesskorpen 12y ago
      The transactions WERE going through the US, which is why the US government had jurisdiction.
      - wazoox 12y ago
        Absolutely not. The US courts used the argument that in last resort a US clearing house _may_ have to survey the transaction because it was in US$. However not a single dollar went through the US.
        jessaustin 12y ago
        I'm puzzled by this: On top of the potentially huge fine, BNP Paribas could suffer a temporary ban on processing dollar transactions, a business that is essential to the operations of an international bank. Are USA officials able to enforce these sorts of restrictions on e.g. the sidewalk moneychangers one finds in any developing nation? There are more dollars (both physical and in ledger books) overseas than in the USA. At what point does a bank in another country become vulnerable to this sort of restriction? Are officers going to show up outside the bank and yell "give us all your dollars!"?

Elhana 12y ago

The issue here is what happens when China does the same and ask Microsoft to hand over data stored in US for US customer? I bet US Gov will be furious. What if every country starts doing this?