5 ms·

I guess the US government will force the US based part of Microsoft to cooperate. No choice, possible in stealth. This might or might not be discovered by the I

I guess the US government will force the US based part of Microsoft to cooperate. No choice, possible in stealth. This might or might not be discovered by the Irish part/government, which must then sue. Basically there is no winning for Microsoft, except keeping it secret, having the US government pressure the Irish not to sue, or having the NSA pay possible fines.

belorn 12y ago
Its not really that simple, since Ireland is part of the European union. If Microsoft willingly break data protection laws, then the EU court would likely sue Microsoft again. Given the history of EU court vs Microsoft, and the market size of EU vs US, Microsoft has no easy solution to the problem. The US government might pressure the Irish, but would have a harder time against European union (which I suppose is part of its design).
- Tomte 12y ago
  The "EU court"? What do you mean? The European Commission?
  - arethuza 12y ago
    The EU Commission brought the case against Microsoft in one of the EU courts: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_Microsoft_competition_case http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_Microsoft_compet...
- yxhuvud 12y ago
  Sadly, so far no company has been sued by EU for complying with american legal requests. I think the motivation is somewhat along the lines that the company didn't have a choice in the matter. Personally I wish that didn't matter and that the privacy breaches would have been prosecuted - I can think of nothing that makes legislative changes faster than companies having to choose where to do business because it would not be possible to do business both in USA and EU.
  - Silhouette 12y ago
    Agreed on all counts. There have been some very shady dealings between Europe and the US, in areas as sensitive as financial and travel information, where it seems the US has demanded data and Europe has conveniently overlooked and/or hacked its own privacy and data protection laws so they can provide it. I suspect given the increasingly anti-EU sentiments in many European countries and the outright hostile behaviour of the US toward foreign citizens in recent years, this situation isn't going to last much longer. Someone in politics is just waiting to make their career by telling a weakened EU administration and/or the US where to go, presenting themselves as the people's advocate and defender of basic human rights. This issue provides a convenient and potentially very effective vehicle for anyone with such ambitions. Put another way, the asymmetric legal, economic and diplomatic relationships that have favoured the US for some time are essentially a bet that the US is worth more as a partner than any cost that asking "how high" will incur. Sooner or later, someone is going to call them, and at this point I'm not sure whether they're just bluffing.
    - cinquemb 12y ago
      I think I would agree to what you are saying as to the logical conclusion of what is happening now, but I hope no one will conflate such a possible outcome with it's probable effectiveness as long as the technical capabilities allow for governments, corporations, and individuals to subvert such systems. Would citizens of the EU have faith in such a candidate anyway who will basically play the same game as their predecessors? Would anyone with the technical capabilities to develop and use encryption/steganography software for things they deem necessary to encrypt, put any trust in such a candidate over themselves? Seems like a growing market to sell people on privacy as a service, which means there will be a growing market for those who want to subvert such…
      - Silhouette 12y ago
        All valid points, but I would add two more. Firstly, the means to make mass surveillance significantly more difficult and expensive already exist, we just don't use them routinely as a society. This lack of security and privacy awareness is harmful for many reasons, only a few of which are related to potential abuses by government organisations, but part of the reason they haven't been used more is because of the pressures imposed formally and no doubt less formally by governments. There is always going to be a balance here, because obviously there are bad people in the world and governments are expected (reasonably or otherwise) to protect their citizens and organisations against those bad people. I doubt any government is going to willingly give up all possibilities to intercept communication, but I think you could have a situation with much more transparency and oversight than we have today to keep that power in check and directed to its intended purposes. Secondly, one of the most disappointing things about this whole affair is that our own intelligence and security services (I'm in the UK) seem to be more concerned with covering their backsides and keeping tight with their US chums than they are with actually, you know, providing for the security of their own country. In an era when foreign surveillance is a significant threat to everyone and so-called allies are among the prime culprits, the duty of our services is to treat those allies as hostile to the extent that their observed behaviour demonstrates they are hostile, and to respond proportionately. US spying on all our citizens' data? Promote encryption as standard and advise businesses on how to keep their data out of US jurisdiction. If allies have legitimate grounds for wanting sensitive information about British people (and I'm certainly not saying they won't have legitimate grounds for doing so from time to time) then let them request that information through proper channels and in compliance with our laws (and make sure our laws provide for assisting allies appropriately but with appropriate controls and oversight as well). Ultimately, you can't rationally expect governments to protect their people without allowing them to use the technical tools and legal powers necessary to do so, but neither can you rationally protect your society and way of life by destroying it. This debate is all about resolving that inherent conflict in as fair and practical a way as possible, and to that extent, I think some fresh views in politics could improve the current situation considerably.
- uptown 12y ago
  "Microsoft has no easy solution to the problem" Part of Microsoft's solution to the problem is getting this headline published. While the article suggests that this has been going on since before the Snowden information disclosures arose, demonstrating that they're resisting is a change from the perception many had regarding Microsoft's stance on these issues when the Snowden content first began to be published. This excerpt supports this point: "Microsoft’s efforts to push back against the government in this and other cases, company officials say, predate the disclosures by former National Security Agency contractor Edward Snowden about the reach of U.S. surveillance. But the revelations, which began a year ago, “certainly put a premium on demonstrating to people that we are fighting,” said one Microsoft official who spoke on the condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak for the company."
- louthy 12y ago
  Microsoft has no easy solution to the problem Perhaps consider moving all operations to Europe.
wahsd 12y ago
That is an important point. The ironically named Patriot Act contains a deeper, clandestine layer a Treason Act, if you will, that can compel American companies to act in ways that are illegal in other jurisdiction. It is kept secret and any business costs and consequences for those actions are compensated, also clandestinely; which is also the biggest reason why it is actually quite crucial that American companies are not trusted by other people around the world. If, e.g., Europe, is serious about protecting and defending against the demons that are quickly consuming the USA; they need to put in place meaningful, positive controls in place. We really need to start coming to terms with the fact that we, the USA, are quickly becoming or maybe even are the most dangerous force humanity has ever seen. Sure, we are not "doing anything wrong" other than killing civilians and even out own people against our own laws by rationalizing ways and reasons to sidestep our most core fundamentals; but we will all rue the day that the force canalizes and stripps off its mask to reveal something far more sinister than most people could even imagine. You have to remember, no horrible regime took power by saying they will graduate to brutalizing their own people. Put it this way, we are well into several meth highs, still insisting that we will be able to stop when we want to and control any addiction that may arise.

belorn 12y ago

Its not really that simple, since Ireland is part of the European union. If Microsoft willingly break data protection laws, then the EU court would likely sue Microsoft again. Given the history of EU court vs Microsoft, and the market size of EU vs US, Microsoft has no easy solution to the problem. The US government might pressure the Irish, but would have a harder time against European union (which I suppose is part of its design).

Tomte 12y ago
The "EU court"? What do you mean? The European Commission?
- arethuza 12y ago
  The EU Commission brought the case against Microsoft in one of the EU courts: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_Microsoft_competition_case http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_Microsoft_compet...
yxhuvud 12y ago
Sadly, so far no company has been sued by EU for complying with american legal requests. I think the motivation is somewhat along the lines that the company didn't have a choice in the matter. Personally I wish that didn't matter and that the privacy breaches would have been prosecuted - I can think of nothing that makes legislative changes faster than companies having to choose where to do business because it would not be possible to do business both in USA and EU.
- Silhouette 12y ago
  Agreed on all counts. There have been some very shady dealings between Europe and the US, in areas as sensitive as financial and travel information, where it seems the US has demanded data and Europe has conveniently overlooked and/or hacked its own privacy and data protection laws so they can provide it. I suspect given the increasingly anti-EU sentiments in many European countries and the outright hostile behaviour of the US toward foreign citizens in recent years, this situation isn't going to last much longer. Someone in politics is just waiting to make their career by telling a weakened EU administration and/or the US where to go, presenting themselves as the people's advocate and defender of basic human rights. This issue provides a convenient and potentially very effective vehicle for anyone with such ambitions. Put another way, the asymmetric legal, economic and diplomatic relationships that have favoured the US for some time are essentially a bet that the US is worth more as a partner than any cost that asking "how high" will incur. Sooner or later, someone is going to call them, and at this point I'm not sure whether they're just bluffing.
  - cinquemb 12y ago
    I think I would agree to what you are saying as to the logical conclusion of what is happening now, but I hope no one will conflate such a possible outcome with it's probable effectiveness as long as the technical capabilities allow for governments, corporations, and individuals to subvert such systems. Would citizens of the EU have faith in such a candidate anyway who will basically play the same game as their predecessors? Would anyone with the technical capabilities to develop and use encryption/steganography software for things they deem necessary to encrypt, put any trust in such a candidate over themselves? Seems like a growing market to sell people on privacy as a service, which means there will be a growing market for those who want to subvert such…
    - Silhouette 12y ago
      All valid points, but I would add two more. Firstly, the means to make mass surveillance significantly more difficult and expensive already exist, we just don't use them routinely as a society. This lack of security and privacy awareness is harmful for many reasons, only a few of which are related to potential abuses by government organisations, but part of the reason they haven't been used more is because of the pressures imposed formally and no doubt less formally by governments. There is always going to be a balance here, because obviously there are bad people in the world and governments are expected (reasonably or otherwise) to protect their citizens and organisations against those bad people. I doubt any government is going to willingly give up all possibilities to intercept communication, but I think you could have a situation with much more transparency and oversight than we have today to keep that power in check and directed to its intended purposes. Secondly, one of the most disappointing things about this whole affair is that our own intelligence and security services (I'm in the UK) seem to be more concerned with covering their backsides and keeping tight with their US chums than they are with actually, you know, providing for the security of their own country. In an era when foreign surveillance is a significant threat to everyone and so-called allies are among the prime culprits, the duty of our services is to treat those allies as hostile to the extent that their observed behaviour demonstrates they are hostile, and to respond proportionately. US spying on all our citizens' data? Promote encryption as standard and advise businesses on how to keep their data out of US jurisdiction. If allies have legitimate grounds for wanting sensitive information about British people (and I'm certainly not saying they won't have legitimate grounds for doing so from time to time) then let them request that information through proper channels and in compliance with our laws (and make sure our laws provide for assisting allies appropriately but with appropriate controls and oversight as well). Ultimately, you can't rationally expect governments to protect their people without allowing them to use the technical tools and legal powers necessary to do so, but neither can you rationally protect your society and way of life by destroying it. This debate is all about resolving that inherent conflict in as fair and practical a way as possible, and to that extent, I think some fresh views in politics could improve the current situation considerably.
uptown 12y ago
"Microsoft has no easy solution to the problem" Part of Microsoft's solution to the problem is getting this headline published. While the article suggests that this has been going on since before the Snowden information disclosures arose, demonstrating that they're resisting is a change from the perception many had regarding Microsoft's stance on these issues when the Snowden content first began to be published. This excerpt supports this point: "Microsoft’s efforts to push back against the government in this and other cases, company officials say, predate the disclosures by former National Security Agency contractor Edward Snowden about the reach of U.S. surveillance. But the revelations, which began a year ago, “certainly put a premium on demonstrating to people that we are fighting,” said one Microsoft official who spoke on the condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak for the company."
louthy 12y ago
Microsoft has no easy solution to the problem Perhaps consider moving all operations to Europe.

wahsd 12y ago

That is an important point. The ironically named Patriot Act contains a deeper, clandestine layer a Treason Act, if you will, that can compel American companies to act in ways that are illegal in other jurisdiction. It is kept secret and any business costs and consequences for those actions are compensated, also clandestinely; which is also the biggest reason why it is actually quite crucial that American companies are not trusted by other people around the world. If, e.g., Europe, is serious about protecting and defending against the demons that are quickly consuming the USA; they need to put in place meaningful, positive controls in place. We really need to start coming to terms with the fact that we, the USA, are quickly becoming or maybe even are the most dangerous force humanity has ever seen. Sure, we are not "doing anything wrong" other than killing civilians and even out own people against our own laws by rationalizing ways and reasons to sidestep our most core fundamentals; but we will all rue the day that the force canalizes and stripps off its mask to reveal something far more sinister than most people could even imagine. You have to remember, no horrible regime took power by saying they will graduate to brutalizing their own people. Put it this way, we are well into several meth highs, still insisting that we will be able to stop when we want to and control any addiction that may arise.