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Isn't it just as, if not more, likely that a teacher would i.e. refuse to teach evolution (or even just be generally incompetent) and irremovable because of ten

Isn't it just as, if not more, likely that a teacher would i.e. refuse to teach evolution (or even just be generally incompetent) and irremovable because of tenure? How does that improve anything?

opendais 12y ago
Ah, but that is a violation of the curriculum and clear cause for removal. Tenure isn't some magical invulnerability to being fired. It simply slows the process to a crawl and forces the collection of a mountain of evidence to fire someone for cause. If someone intentionally, and repeatedly, violates the curriculum you can fire a tenured teacher. You can't acquire that mountain of evidence in the 12 months between getting a ban on evolution passed and having it repealed in federal court.
- joeclark77 12y ago
  You just contradicted yourself. You're saying here that tenure cannot enable teachers to defy the school board.
  - opendais 12y ago
    I didn't actually. Tenure doesn't give them immunity to the school board and/or other administrators. It does last long enough that abuses of the system and/or unofficial pressure to be resolved before the teacher actually loses their job. Firing a teacher with tenure can take 12+ months. Clearer?
    - Variance 12y ago
      Joe is right, you did contradict yourself. You originally said that tenure allows teachers to violate stupid school board decisions and to teach evolution anyway. Here, you said that tenure does not allow teachers to not teach evolution if the school board mandates it. Which is it? Can the school board fire teachers for not following the curriculum? If so, then school boards can stop teachers from teaching evolution. If not, then teachers can choose to teach Creationism. Either way, tenure doesn't matter.
      - opendais 12y ago
        > How much do you want to bet violating such a ban would lead to immediate dismissal without tenure protections? Another way to phrase that would be: Teachers can violate such a ban temporarily. It isn't blanket immunity and that isn't what I said.
        Variance 12y ago
        So teachers can only teach evolution temporarily until the school board fires them and implements Creationism?
        opendais 12y ago
        Assuming the Church/State separation vanishes, yes.

Isn't it just as, if not more, likely that a teacher would i.e. refuse to teach evolution (or even just be generally incompetent) and irremovable because of tenure? How does that improve anything?

opendais 12y ago

Ah, but that is a violation of the curriculum and clear cause for removal. Tenure isn't some magical invulnerability to being fired. It simply slows the process to a crawl and forces the collection of a mountain of evidence to fire someone for cause. If someone intentionally, and repeatedly, violates the curriculum you can fire a tenured teacher. You can't acquire that mountain of evidence in the 12 months between getting a ban on evolution passed and having it repealed in federal court.

joeclark77 12y ago
You just contradicted yourself. You're saying here that tenure cannot enable teachers to defy the school board.
- opendais 12y ago
  I didn't actually. Tenure doesn't give them immunity to the school board and/or other administrators. It does last long enough that abuses of the system and/or unofficial pressure to be resolved before the teacher actually loses their job. Firing a teacher with tenure can take 12+ months. Clearer?
  - Variance 12y ago
    Joe is right, you did contradict yourself. You originally said that tenure allows teachers to violate stupid school board decisions and to teach evolution anyway. Here, you said that tenure does not allow teachers to not teach evolution if the school board mandates it. Which is it? Can the school board fire teachers for not following the curriculum? If so, then school boards can stop teachers from teaching evolution. If not, then teachers can choose to teach Creationism. Either way, tenure doesn't matter.
    - opendais 12y ago
      > How much do you want to bet violating such a ban would lead to immediate dismissal without tenure protections? Another way to phrase that would be: Teachers can violate such a ban temporarily. It isn't blanket immunity and that isn't what I said.
      - Variance 12y ago
        So teachers can only teach evolution temporarily until the school board fires them and implements Creationism?
        opendais 12y ago
        Assuming the Church/State separation vanishes, yes.