5 ms·

I'm annoyed by the headline. I know it's meant to grab attention by seeming counter-intuitive, but as it is, the headline is simply wrong. This medical procedur

I'm annoyed by the headline. I know it's meant to grab attention by seeming counter-intuitive, but as it is, the headline is simply wrong. This medical procedure does not involve "killing" the patient. It involves cooling the patient down internally to essentially suspend them, so the doctors have a greater window of time to perform the necessary procedures. The best way of doing this happens to be to temporarily replace the patient's blood with a saline fluid, and if you think that's "killing" the patient, then I suggest you grab the nearest dictionary and smack yourself with it.

enoch_r 12y ago
> happens to be to temporarily replace the patient's blood with a saline fluid Which, according to the article, has the effect of stopping the heart as well as brain activity. This seems pretty close to "death." If someone decided to stop the operation halfway through without replacing the saline solution or reviving the patient, it would make sense to me to claim that the "time of death" was the time at which brain activity ceased.
- pygy_ 12y ago
  General anesthesia also stops brain activity, and you can die during open heart surgery. The time of death won't be the time of loss of consciousness. It is about conserving information. As long as your brain can be turned back on you're still alive.
  - Crito 12y ago
    Do you have a source for that? Obviously it suspends consciousness, in a more dramatic way than even falling asleep, but I find it difficult to believe that all brain functions are suspended. At the very least, with some varieties of general anesthesia, the brain stem keeps vital functions working. Edit: Looking at wikipedia a bit, it looks like "brain death" is currently defined as including a dead brain stem. Kind of seems like an ethical gray area when the cerebrum really is dead (non-recoverable), not merely suspended. Still, I'm not convinced that general anesthesia fully suspends the cerebrum. I believe at least some forms merely suspend the ability to form memories.
    - pygy_ 12y ago
      The brainstem is not needed to sustain the heart beat and blood pressure. It participates in its regulation, but both parameters have "sane defaults" without any input. Furthermore, while necessary, the brainstem is not sufficient to sustain consciousness. Third, phenobarbital at a sufficient dose completely wipes electric brain activity (metabloism goes on, at a lower pace). Fourth, even if you suspend someone using the procedure described in the article, there is still residual biologic activity in the cells. Chemical reactions are slowed down, but not stopped.
mikeash 12y ago
"Without heartbeat and brain activity, the patients will be clinically dead." As far as I can tell, that statement is correct. The headline is drawing attention to the evolving nature of just what constitutes "death" and how this particular procedure is pushing it out even further.
- pygy_ 12y ago
  Clinical death is a lack of blood pulse and breathing. Hence the modern meaning of "resuscitation" for "rebooting the heart". It hasn't been a synonym for "death" for a few decades. "Brain death" is a total and irreversible loss of brain function.

enoch_r 12y ago

> happens to be to temporarily replace the patient's blood with a saline fluid Which, according to the article, has the effect of stopping the heart as well as brain activity. This seems pretty close to "death." If someone decided to stop the operation halfway through without replacing the saline solution or reviving the patient, it would make sense to me to claim that the "time of death" was the time at which brain activity ceased.

pygy_ 12y ago
General anesthesia also stops brain activity, and you can die during open heart surgery. The time of death won't be the time of loss of consciousness. It is about conserving information. As long as your brain can be turned back on you're still alive.
- Crito 12y ago
  Do you have a source for that? Obviously it suspends consciousness, in a more dramatic way than even falling asleep, but I find it difficult to believe that all brain functions are suspended. At the very least, with some varieties of general anesthesia, the brain stem keeps vital functions working. Edit: Looking at wikipedia a bit, it looks like "brain death" is currently defined as including a dead brain stem. Kind of seems like an ethical gray area when the cerebrum really is dead (non-recoverable), not merely suspended. Still, I'm not convinced that general anesthesia fully suspends the cerebrum. I believe at least some forms merely suspend the ability to form memories.
  - pygy_ 12y ago
    The brainstem is not needed to sustain the heart beat and blood pressure. It participates in its regulation, but both parameters have "sane defaults" without any input. Furthermore, while necessary, the brainstem is not sufficient to sustain consciousness. Third, phenobarbital at a sufficient dose completely wipes electric brain activity (metabloism goes on, at a lower pace). Fourth, even if you suspend someone using the procedure described in the article, there is still residual biologic activity in the cells. Chemical reactions are slowed down, but not stopped.

mikeash 12y ago

"Without heartbeat and brain activity, the patients will be clinically dead." As far as I can tell, that statement is correct. The headline is drawing attention to the evolving nature of just what constitutes "death" and how this particular procedure is pushing it out even further.

pygy_ 12y ago
Clinical death is a lack of blood pulse and breathing. Hence the modern meaning of "resuscitation" for "rebooting the heart". It hasn't been a synonym for "death" for a few decades. "Brain death" is a total and irreversible loss of brain function.