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I hope Netflix makes this a standard feature for all ISPs. Bonus point for more transparency, e.g. network graphs comparing peak to off-peak. This sort of visi

I hope Netflix makes this a standard feature for all ISPs. Bonus point for more transparency, e.g. network graphs comparing peak to off-peak. This sort of visibility into the real problems means the ISPs can't hide behind their lies.

oostevo 12y ago
It sounds like they might: "We are testing this type of messaging across the U.S. with multiple providers" [end of 1st paragraph] and "The current transparency test ... is scheduled to end June 16 and we are evaluating rolling it out more broadly. Regardless of this specific test, we will continue to work on ways to communicate network conditions to our customers." [last paragraph]
- niels_olson 12y ago
  Internet current conditions. Love it. "And it looks like we're going to have a very blustery afternoon making for a tough easterly traffic situation and a high of 97 cuils"
  - nsxwolf 12y ago
    http://www.internetweathermap.com/map http://www.internetweathermap.com/map
  - dmdeller 12y ago
    For those who may not have gotten the reference, I've cuil'd it for you: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuil https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuil
jobu 12y ago
What is the messaging they're displaying to Verizon customers?
- stonemetal 12y ago
  Verizon network is crowded right now. Adjusting video for smoother playback.
  - SoftwareMaven 12y ago
    Should be "degrading image for smoother playback". We know that's what's happening; do most people?
    - stuaxo 12y ago
      Even if they don't, they will be annoyed enough at seeing the message that says they have to wait.
- sp332 12y ago
  "The Verizon network is crowded right now." https://twitter.com/yurivictor/status/473978204852453376 https://twitter.com/yurivictor/status/473978204852453376
- deveac 12y ago
  Screenshot: https://twitter.com/yurivictor/statuses/473978204852453376 https://twitter.com/yurivictor/statuses/473978204852453376
- ensignavenger 12y ago
  Instead of the normal "buffering" message, they were apparently displaying something to the effect of "sorry, it looks like Verizon's network is congested" for Verizon customers.
Bud 12y ago
You're very optimistic. Myself, I think it's far more likely that ISPs are about to successfully run out the clock on all this, kill net neutrality, and then they won't have to ever worry about this or any "transparency" efforts again. Everyone can just pay more for ever-crappier service, and there will be no relevant data to examine, because there will be no "standard" level of service anyone has access to, and therefore no way to compare one level of service to any other level of service at another time or via someone else's product...or at least, no way to do anything about it other than impotently gripe.
- hga 12y ago
  I find it remarkable that you have an Eeyore, "With Folded Hands" take on the first demonstrably successful action against these last mile ISPs. Companies like Verizon don't casually threaten legal action, this is really getting to them. (Perhaps because one of Verizon's unique selling propositions is the quality of their networks, this has the potential for broad damage to their brand.)
  - Bud 12y ago
    Perhaps you're right, and I'm being too pessimistic and harsh about this. But the perspective gained from watching the big ISPs over the last couple decades doesn't make me hopeful. Why would you say this is a "demonstrably successful" action, btw? Has Verizon actually changed any of their business practices for the better? So far, all I can see is that they are tossing around legal threats. That's not progress; that's Verizon's gigantic legal team gearing up to make sure Verizon can continue to do Absolutely Nothing Positive about the issues in question.
    - hga 12y ago
      Ultimately this is a political battle, and Netflix is demonstrating they can get the ears of their downtrodden subscribers. This is an existential threat to the business model of the big last mile providers save perhaps Century, and might even help push them into the worst case of common carrier status, as the FCC is threatening. Right now I don't read that threat as credible, but, let's say, how about after the first few Congresscritters are sent home to spend more time with their families after an election? We gun owners, probably less numerous than voting Internet users (don't believe gun ownership self-reporting in surveys, for obvious reasons), with nothing more than our organized votes, have moved mountains at every level of government over the last three decades. Ask ex-Speaker of the House Tom Foley about our power (first Speaker to be turned out of office since the Civil War in 1862). As the Internet, and good Internet service, gets every more important, the potential is there. Getting back to my analogy, the gun grabbers had a fantastic run for a couple of decades (or more than a century, depending on how you count this and gun control starting to really bite non-minorities), before politically effective resistance started showing results.
deveac 12y ago
|This sort of visibility into the real problems means the ISPs can't hide behind their lies.| Unfortunately, all the transparency in the world can't effect change when the consumer lacks choice in the marketplace. ISPs need to be classified as common carriers.
- MaulingMonkey 12y ago
  Transparency alone never effects change. But angering the voter can pressure the congresscritter can put the fear of regulation into a company. I'll admit I don't see much change coming from this individual spat, but I find it reassuring that there's at least this means of "recourse" for content providers.
jsz0 12y ago
> ISPs can't hide behind their lies. NetFlix isn't exactly being honest here either. They could easily delay the start of video playback to allow for more caching on congested networks to offer their customers a better experience. They could also allow customers to queue videos to be downloaded/cached locally in advance. These things would provide a better experience to NetFlix's customers so why aren't they doing them? I suppose they cost too much to develop or would increase NetFlix's costs with content providers. In other words NetFlix is trying to maximize their own profits and throwing a fit that ISPs are doing the exact same thing.
- Arnt 12y ago
  That doesn't work. Such a delay and a couple of other tricks only help against jitter. If you're short of bandwidth for tens of seconds or longer, the only solution is to stream at very low bitrate. (FWIW, I've worked for a streaming company and one of my projects there involved bandwidth measurement.)

oostevo 12y ago

It sounds like they might: "We are testing this type of messaging across the U.S. with multiple providers" [end of 1st paragraph] and "The current transparency test ... is scheduled to end June 16 and we are evaluating rolling it out more broadly. Regardless of this specific test, we will continue to work on ways to communicate network conditions to our customers." [last paragraph]

niels_olson 12y ago
Internet current conditions. Love it. "And it looks like we're going to have a very blustery afternoon making for a tough easterly traffic situation and a high of 97 cuils"
- nsxwolf 12y ago
  http://www.internetweathermap.com/map http://www.internetweathermap.com/map
- dmdeller 12y ago
  For those who may not have gotten the reference, I've cuil'd it for you: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuil https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuil

jobu 12y ago

What is the messaging they're displaying to Verizon customers?

stonemetal 12y ago
Verizon network is crowded right now. Adjusting video for smoother playback.
- SoftwareMaven 12y ago
  Should be "degrading image for smoother playback". We know that's what's happening; do most people?
  - stuaxo 12y ago
    Even if they don't, they will be annoyed enough at seeing the message that says they have to wait.
sp332 12y ago
"The Verizon network is crowded right now." https://twitter.com/yurivictor/status/473978204852453376 https://twitter.com/yurivictor/status/473978204852453376
deveac 12y ago
Screenshot: https://twitter.com/yurivictor/statuses/473978204852453376 https://twitter.com/yurivictor/statuses/473978204852453376
ensignavenger 12y ago
Instead of the normal "buffering" message, they were apparently displaying something to the effect of "sorry, it looks like Verizon's network is congested" for Verizon customers.

Bud 12y ago

You're very optimistic. Myself, I think it's far more likely that ISPs are about to successfully run out the clock on all this, kill net neutrality, and then they won't have to ever worry about this or any "transparency" efforts again. Everyone can just pay more for ever-crappier service, and there will be no relevant data to examine, because there will be no "standard" level of service anyone has access to, and therefore no way to compare one level of service to any other level of service at another time or via someone else's product...or at least, no way to do anything about it other than impotently gripe.

hga 12y ago
I find it remarkable that you have an Eeyore, "With Folded Hands" take on the first demonstrably successful action against these last mile ISPs. Companies like Verizon don't casually threaten legal action, this is really getting to them. (Perhaps because one of Verizon's unique selling propositions is the quality of their networks, this has the potential for broad damage to their brand.)
- Bud 12y ago
  Perhaps you're right, and I'm being too pessimistic and harsh about this. But the perspective gained from watching the big ISPs over the last couple decades doesn't make me hopeful. Why would you say this is a "demonstrably successful" action, btw? Has Verizon actually changed any of their business practices for the better? So far, all I can see is that they are tossing around legal threats. That's not progress; that's Verizon's gigantic legal team gearing up to make sure Verizon can continue to do Absolutely Nothing Positive about the issues in question.
  - hga 12y ago
    Ultimately this is a political battle, and Netflix is demonstrating they can get the ears of their downtrodden subscribers. This is an existential threat to the business model of the big last mile providers save perhaps Century, and might even help push them into the worst case of common carrier status, as the FCC is threatening. Right now I don't read that threat as credible, but, let's say, how about after the first few Congresscritters are sent home to spend more time with their families after an election? We gun owners, probably less numerous than voting Internet users (don't believe gun ownership self-reporting in surveys, for obvious reasons), with nothing more than our organized votes, have moved mountains at every level of government over the last three decades. Ask ex-Speaker of the House Tom Foley about our power (first Speaker to be turned out of office since the Civil War in 1862). As the Internet, and good Internet service, gets every more important, the potential is there. Getting back to my analogy, the gun grabbers had a fantastic run for a couple of decades (or more than a century, depending on how you count this and gun control starting to really bite non-minorities), before politically effective resistance started showing results.

deveac 12y ago

|This sort of visibility into the real problems means the ISPs can't hide behind their lies.| Unfortunately, all the transparency in the world can't effect change when the consumer lacks choice in the marketplace. ISPs need to be classified as common carriers.

MaulingMonkey 12y ago
Transparency alone never effects change. But angering the voter can pressure the congresscritter can put the fear of regulation into a company. I'll admit I don't see much change coming from this individual spat, but I find it reassuring that there's at least this means of "recourse" for content providers.

jsz0 12y ago

> ISPs can't hide behind their lies. NetFlix isn't exactly being honest here either. They could easily delay the start of video playback to allow for more caching on congested networks to offer their customers a better experience. They could also allow customers to queue videos to be downloaded/cached locally in advance. These things would provide a better experience to NetFlix's customers so why aren't they doing them? I suppose they cost too much to develop or would increase NetFlix's costs with content providers. In other words NetFlix is trying to maximize their own profits and throwing a fit that ISPs are doing the exact same thing.

Arnt 12y ago
That doesn't work. Such a delay and a couple of other tricks only help against jitter. If you're short of bandwidth for tens of seconds or longer, the only solution is to stream at very low bitrate. (FWIW, I've worked for a streaming company and one of my projects there involved bandwidth measurement.)