4 ms·

I first saw the name "bro" and thought, "ohh geez..." but then I took a look and found this is coming from very serious people. The kind of people that wouldn't

by jmsdnns 12y ago

I first saw the name "bro" and thought, "ohh geez..." but then I took a look and found this is coming from very serious people. The kind of people that wouldn't make a brogrammer joke. Can anyone explain the name of the project?

bri3d 12y ago
Here's the original paper where the project is described: http://www.icir.org/vern/papers/bro-CN99.html http://www.icir.org/vern/papers/bro-CN99.html The name is short for "big brother" - an Orwell reference.
- krakensden 12y ago
  Additionally, the name predates brosteria by several years.
- tptacek 12y ago
  That paper is from 1999, but Bro probably predates that; I talked to Vern in person about Bro when we wrote our 1998 "Insertion Evasion" paper --- Vern had independently discovered many of the same design flaws we did and captured them in the Bro paper. Vern Paxson is extraordinarily serious; he was part of the LBL network research group team, alongside Van Jacobsen and Steve McCanne and Sally Floyd. That was one of the most famous network research teams in... well, the history of the Internet.
  - gonzo 12y ago
    let's not forget Craig Leres.
tptacek 12y ago
It's simply not a brogrammer joke. That's all there is to say about it.
- Steuard 12y ago
  I hate to say it, but despite their prior claim to the name, today's reality means that the name will be a persistent distraction from the underlying product. It's not remotely fair, but that doesn't make it untrue. Just ask the diet pill company from the early 1980s that used to advertise "Ayds helps you control your appetite so you lose weight!" Or the many Hindus today who are frustrated that their Swastika earrings get mistaken for an endorsement of Nazism. Bro culture in tech is a poison, and one of the many crappy things about poison is its tendency to contaminate otherwise harmless things that happen to be nearby.
  - tptacek 12y ago
    Are you at all familiar with Bro? Could you, for instance, state some ways that it's different than it's leading open source competitor? (It would also be good if you knew who that was.) Or for that matter any of the innovations that Bro introduced? If you can, I'll take your argument seriously (although, fair warning, I'll take it seriously long enough to beat it to death with a shovel).
    - mikecb 12y ago
      Every time this is posted, and this discussion happens, I am reminded to never judge a brook by its cover. Edit: I'm going to leave that typo as is.
    - Steuard 12y ago
      I have not the slightest familiarity with Bro or its competitors, and I wouldn't dream of pretending to. My comment here is entirely from the perspective of an outsider hearing about the project and trying to figure out whether learning more about it could be valuable to me. I can see at least two very sensible ways in which the concern that I've shared here could be unimportant (and you may see others). I don't even know enough to know to what degree either applies here. One might be if nobody but an established specialist in the field would ever have a need to assess, use, or contribute to Bro or its competitors. In that case, the negative associations with the name would be unimportant: the specialists would be fully invested in the technical details, and the name wouldn't have any substantial exposure to the broader tech community. (The only cost would be occasional unimportant dust-ups when that exposure happens, as in this case.) Another might be if there is a good chance that the importance of this project will outlast the public prominence of bro culture in tech. (Given the longevity of Bro to date and the promising backlash against bro culture, that seems quite plausible.) In that case, it might be entirely sensible to just weather the current storm of negative associations and trust that everyone will have forgotten brogrammers in five years. (That's only fully applicable if they really are forgotten, though, rather than being a lingering negative memory.) You may have other reasonable arguments for setting aside the concerns that I've raised as well. But I do think that occasional undeserved distractions because of the name are inevitable, and I could imagine them being a real problem.
alxndr 12y ago
I had the same reaction. If they're going for a Big Brother reference, why not a name like BB or George[Orwell] or something from Newspeak?
- Zikes 12y ago
  Because there is nothing wrong with the word "bro".
  - drivingmenuts 12y ago
    Seriously? Denotatively, it's meaningless. Connotatively, it's turned into a pretty objectionable term, in my opinion.
    - Zikes 12y ago
      Yes, seriously. It's just a word, like "sis" or "gal" or "the", and has no inherent negative or positive connotations. Somebody has invented drama around this word, some other people have bought into it, and now more people are just trying to stir it up again because Hacker News has somehow gone a whole two days without senseless bickering.
      - gohrt 12y ago
        > has no inherent negative or positive connotations. That's not how 'connotation' works. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Connotation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Connotation
  - forgottenpass 12y ago
    There's no getting around it anymore. We have to accept the fact Bay Area startup culture has turned a term of endearment into a gendered slur.
    - Zikes 12y ago
      So we grow a backbone and tread on, ignoring the people trying to manufacture scandal for their own entertainment or empowerment, or we let one city's subculture control the rights to the English language. I choose the former.

by jmsdnns 12y ago

bri3d 12y ago

Here's the original paper where the project is described: http://www.icir.org/vern/papers/bro-CN99.html http://www.icir.org/vern/papers/bro-CN99.html The name is short for "big brother" - an Orwell reference.

krakensden 12y ago
Additionally, the name predates brosteria by several years.
tptacek 12y ago
That paper is from 1999, but Bro probably predates that; I talked to Vern in person about Bro when we wrote our 1998 "Insertion Evasion" paper --- Vern had independently discovered many of the same design flaws we did and captured them in the Bro paper. Vern Paxson is extraordinarily serious; he was part of the LBL network research group team, alongside Van Jacobsen and Steve McCanne and Sally Floyd. That was one of the most famous network research teams in... well, the history of the Internet.
- gonzo 12y ago
  let's not forget Craig Leres.

tptacek 12y ago

It's simply not a brogrammer joke. That's all there is to say about it.

Steuard 12y ago
I hate to say it, but despite their prior claim to the name, today's reality means that the name will be a persistent distraction from the underlying product. It's not remotely fair, but that doesn't make it untrue. Just ask the diet pill company from the early 1980s that used to advertise "Ayds helps you control your appetite so you lose weight!" Or the many Hindus today who are frustrated that their Swastika earrings get mistaken for an endorsement of Nazism. Bro culture in tech is a poison, and one of the many crappy things about poison is its tendency to contaminate otherwise harmless things that happen to be nearby.
- tptacek 12y ago
  Are you at all familiar with Bro? Could you, for instance, state some ways that it's different than it's leading open source competitor? (It would also be good if you knew who that was.) Or for that matter any of the innovations that Bro introduced? If you can, I'll take your argument seriously (although, fair warning, I'll take it seriously long enough to beat it to death with a shovel).
  - mikecb 12y ago
    Every time this is posted, and this discussion happens, I am reminded to never judge a brook by its cover. Edit: I'm going to leave that typo as is.
  - Steuard 12y ago
    I have not the slightest familiarity with Bro or its competitors, and I wouldn't dream of pretending to. My comment here is entirely from the perspective of an outsider hearing about the project and trying to figure out whether learning more about it could be valuable to me. I can see at least two very sensible ways in which the concern that I've shared here could be unimportant (and you may see others). I don't even know enough to know to what degree either applies here. One might be if nobody but an established specialist in the field would ever have a need to assess, use, or contribute to Bro or its competitors. In that case, the negative associations with the name would be unimportant: the specialists would be fully invested in the technical details, and the name wouldn't have any substantial exposure to the broader tech community. (The only cost would be occasional unimportant dust-ups when that exposure happens, as in this case.) Another might be if there is a good chance that the importance of this project will outlast the public prominence of bro culture in tech. (Given the longevity of Bro to date and the promising backlash against bro culture, that seems quite plausible.) In that case, it might be entirely sensible to just weather the current storm of negative associations and trust that everyone will have forgotten brogrammers in five years. (That's only fully applicable if they really are forgotten, though, rather than being a lingering negative memory.) You may have other reasonable arguments for setting aside the concerns that I've raised as well. But I do think that occasional undeserved distractions because of the name are inevitable, and I could imagine them being a real problem.

alxndr 12y ago

I had the same reaction. If they're going for a Big Brother reference, why not a name like BB or George[Orwell] or something from Newspeak?

Zikes 12y ago
Because there is nothing wrong with the word "bro".
- drivingmenuts 12y ago
  Seriously? Denotatively, it's meaningless. Connotatively, it's turned into a pretty objectionable term, in my opinion.
  - Zikes 12y ago
    Yes, seriously. It's just a word, like "sis" or "gal" or "the", and has no inherent negative or positive connotations. Somebody has invented drama around this word, some other people have bought into it, and now more people are just trying to stir it up again because Hacker News has somehow gone a whole two days without senseless bickering.
    - gohrt 12y ago
      > has no inherent negative or positive connotations. That's not how 'connotation' works. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Connotation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Connotation
- forgottenpass 12y ago
  There's no getting around it anymore. We have to accept the fact Bay Area startup culture has turned a term of endearment into a gendered slur.
  - Zikes 12y ago
    So we grow a backbone and tread on, ignoring the people trying to manufacture scandal for their own entertainment or empowerment, or we let one city's subculture control the rights to the English language. I choose the former.