5 ms·

Speak for yourself! (or maybe, for annoying coworkers???) It's certainly possible to write functions (subs) with comments about what they do, and use meaningf

Speak for yourself! (or maybe, for annoying coworkers???) It's certainly possible to write functions (subs) with comments about what they do, and use meaningful variable names. The built-in syntax/operators do require some study, though. For the "Enterprise!" developer pool, there's Java. The 500 line methods are still hard to slog through, though. Too many never got the note about a "business logic layer" and abstraction, and just shove all the details in-line. In which case, the language of mandate doesn't matter much.

EdwardDiego 12y ago
> For the "Enterprise!" developer pool, there's Java. The 500 line methods are still hard to slog through, though. Great straw-man there. I didn't realise that javac required 500 line methods before compilation. > In which case, the language of mandate doesn't matter much. It's a lot easier to pass two collections to a method in Java than to a sub in Perl.
- deleted 12y ago
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  - EdwardDiego 12y ago
    Your reply makes no sense to me I'm afraid. > And I didn't realize the well written Perl code compiles equally better. Equally better? > And its certainly a lot easier to open files and do things in Perl than writing several hundreds of lines just to set and get variables for one single class. Come on, seriously. Here's how I open files in Java: import com.google.common.io.Files; List<String> lines = Files.readLines(new File("/foo"), Charset.UTF8); Why do you insist on straw-men to back up your arguments?
    - deleted 12y ago
      [deleted]
      - EdwardDiego 12y ago
        1) It's a library, there's no need for One True Library. Especially not in a Perl thread (CPAN is awesome). You use whatever works best for you. 2) Caught and re-thrown as a RuntimeException by the library. 3) No idea, but if I need that low level of control, I wouldn't be using a readLines convenience method. 4) Like you can pass files as a parameter, and create lists of them to iterate over. 5 - 8 are a different problem domain. But I was merely answering your hundreds of lines to read a file straw-man. I never suggested Java be used as a scripting language, if you really want to script on the JVM, use Scala, Groovy, Clojure or Kotlin. But personally, I script in Python. Let's resurrect that old pissing match with Perl. ;)
      - Poiesis 12y ago
        So, I actually have no love for Java, and am greatly enjoying the higher proportion of scripting irb been up to lately. But I had to comment on a couple things: > Why only that library...? I've seen it all when a Perl developer is calling out a Java developer regarding TMTOWTDI. Nice library though. >I would like to execute some shell commands Not sure comparing to a language with an explicit complicit compilation step is fair.
        Roboprog 12y ago
        FWIW, I do more Java than Perl at work, though a fair amount of both. I guess I have written both "in anger", depending on the situation. I guess the thing that gets under my skin about Java is that it is the mandatory one true language at so many workplaces.
    - Roboprog 12y ago
      On the one hand, that's a pretty cool library. (with a function to emulate back-tick into an array) On the other hand, now I have to go to the Enterprise Committee with a Permission To Install Library Form to get it, since it's not part of the base language. It might well be worth it to use Google's jar, but it's a delaying nuisance.
      - EdwardDiego 12y ago
        > On the other hand, now I have to go to the Enterprise Committee with a Permission To Install Library Form to get it, since it's not part of the base language. It might well be worth it to use Google's jar, but it's a delaying nuisance. Argh, same straw-man again mate.
        Roboprog 12y ago
        Dude, this ain't no straw man, this is my life! :-) ("only the names have been changed, to protect the guilty") Not sayin' it's a universal problem, but it's a problem for me.
      - rat87 12y ago
        java 8 has http://docs.oracle.com/javase/8/docs/api/java/nio/file/Files.html#lines-java.nio.file.Path- http://docs.oracle.com/javase/8/docs/api/java/nio/file/Files... Stream<string> Files.lines("/foo", StandardCharsets.UTF_8) java 7 has http://docs.oracle.com/javase/7/docs/api/java/nio/file/Files.html#readAllLines%28java.nio.file.Path,%20java.nio.charset.Charset%29 http://docs.oracle.com/javase/7/docs/api/java/nio/file/Files... but it's not lazy.
- Roboprog 12y ago
  --- Java --- List <Integer> aList = Arrays.asList( new int [] { 1, 3, 5 }); // probably missing some more type stuff in <> Map <String, String> aMap = new HashMap <String, String> (); aMap.put( "name", "Joe"); aMap.put( "ID", "42"); // I need to check if Java 8 has map literals a la Groovy... doSomething( aList, aMap); ... void doSomething( List <Integer> aList, Map <String, String> aMap) { System.out.println( "First: " + aList.get( 0) + ", Name: " + aMap.get( "name") ); } --- Perl --- &do_something( [ 1, 3, 5 ], { 'name' => 'Joe', 'ID' => '42 }); ... sub do_something { my( $list_ref, $hash_ref) = @_; printf "First: %d, Name: %s\n", ${ $list_ref }[ 0 ], ${ $hash_ref }{ 'name' }; } ------ I'm not seeing that much of a difference in parameter passing, other than the explicit reference/dereference syntax. Of course Java doesn't require 500 line methods. But the bondage and discipline imposed is independent of whether or not readable code will be produced. I actually like strongly typed languages for larger programs, but prefer something more fast and loose for smaller ones. TMTOWTDI!
  - Roboprog 12y ago
    I guess that bottom line of what I am trying to say is that not all perl code is unreadable crap. That has more to do with the writer than the language. And, different languages make different things easier. No final "right" or "wrong" choice for all use cases.
    - EdwardDiego 12y ago
      > I guess that bottom line of what I am trying to say is that not all perl code is unreadable crap. That has more to do with the writer than the language. And, different languages make different things easier. I would agree. It's the same issue Scala faces IMO - it doesn't have to be a complex maze of types and implicit conversions and implicit values, you can, if disciplined, write very understandable and clear Scala. Sadly though, it seems a lot of developers aren't disciplined.
      - mst 12y ago
        With great power comes great capacity to write overly clever unmaintainable crap.
iopq 12y ago
It's certainly possible to write functions (subs) with comments about what they do, and use meaningful variable names in Assembly too.
CatMtKing 12y ago
I can read Perl, but the only way you'll get me to read it is to write a script with bugs in it and force me to debug it. It's fun in a masochistic sort of way. Anyway, Python and Haskell are my languages of choice now.

EdwardDiego 12y ago

> For the "Enterprise!" developer pool, there's Java. The 500 line methods are still hard to slog through, though. Great straw-man there. I didn't realise that javac required 500 line methods before compilation. > In which case, the language of mandate doesn't matter much. It's a lot easier to pass two collections to a method in Java than to a sub in Perl.

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
- EdwardDiego 12y ago
  Your reply makes no sense to me I'm afraid. > And I didn't realize the well written Perl code compiles equally better. Equally better? > And its certainly a lot easier to open files and do things in Perl than writing several hundreds of lines just to set and get variables for one single class. Come on, seriously. Here's how I open files in Java: import com.google.common.io.Files; List<String> lines = Files.readLines(new File("/foo"), Charset.UTF8); Why do you insist on straw-men to back up your arguments?
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
    - EdwardDiego 12y ago
      1) It's a library, there's no need for One True Library. Especially not in a Perl thread (CPAN is awesome). You use whatever works best for you. 2) Caught and re-thrown as a RuntimeException by the library. 3) No idea, but if I need that low level of control, I wouldn't be using a readLines convenience method. 4) Like you can pass files as a parameter, and create lists of them to iterate over. 5 - 8 are a different problem domain. But I was merely answering your hundreds of lines to read a file straw-man. I never suggested Java be used as a scripting language, if you really want to script on the JVM, use Scala, Groovy, Clojure or Kotlin. But personally, I script in Python. Let's resurrect that old pissing match with Perl. ;)
    - Poiesis 12y ago
      So, I actually have no love for Java, and am greatly enjoying the higher proportion of scripting irb been up to lately. But I had to comment on a couple things: > Why only that library...? I've seen it all when a Perl developer is calling out a Java developer regarding TMTOWTDI. Nice library though. >I would like to execute some shell commands Not sure comparing to a language with an explicit complicit compilation step is fair.
      - Roboprog 12y ago
        FWIW, I do more Java than Perl at work, though a fair amount of both. I guess I have written both "in anger", depending on the situation. I guess the thing that gets under my skin about Java is that it is the mandatory one true language at so many workplaces.
  - Roboprog 12y ago
    On the one hand, that's a pretty cool library. (with a function to emulate back-tick into an array) On the other hand, now I have to go to the Enterprise Committee with a Permission To Install Library Form to get it, since it's not part of the base language. It might well be worth it to use Google's jar, but it's a delaying nuisance.
    - EdwardDiego 12y ago
      > On the other hand, now I have to go to the Enterprise Committee with a Permission To Install Library Form to get it, since it's not part of the base language. It might well be worth it to use Google's jar, but it's a delaying nuisance. Argh, same straw-man again mate.
      - Roboprog 12y ago
        Dude, this ain't no straw man, this is my life! :-) ("only the names have been changed, to protect the guilty") Not sayin' it's a universal problem, but it's a problem for me.
    - rat87 12y ago
      java 8 has http://docs.oracle.com/javase/8/docs/api/java/nio/file/Files.html#lines-java.nio.file.Path- http://docs.oracle.com/javase/8/docs/api/java/nio/file/Files... Stream<string> Files.lines("/foo", StandardCharsets.UTF_8) java 7 has http://docs.oracle.com/javase/7/docs/api/java/nio/file/Files.html#readAllLines%28java.nio.file.Path,%20java.nio.charset.Charset%29 http://docs.oracle.com/javase/7/docs/api/java/nio/file/Files... but it's not lazy.
Roboprog 12y ago
--- Java --- List <Integer> aList = Arrays.asList( new int [] { 1, 3, 5 }); // probably missing some more type stuff in <> Map <String, String> aMap = new HashMap <String, String> (); aMap.put( "name", "Joe"); aMap.put( "ID", "42"); // I need to check if Java 8 has map literals a la Groovy... doSomething( aList, aMap); ... void doSomething( List <Integer> aList, Map <String, String> aMap) { System.out.println( "First: " + aList.get( 0) + ", Name: " + aMap.get( "name") ); } --- Perl --- &do_something( [ 1, 3, 5 ], { 'name' => 'Joe', 'ID' => '42 }); ... sub do_something { my( $list_ref, $hash_ref) = @_; printf "First: %d, Name: %s\n", ${ $list_ref }[ 0 ], ${ $hash_ref }{ 'name' }; } ------ I'm not seeing that much of a difference in parameter passing, other than the explicit reference/dereference syntax. Of course Java doesn't require 500 line methods. But the bondage and discipline imposed is independent of whether or not readable code will be produced. I actually like strongly typed languages for larger programs, but prefer something more fast and loose for smaller ones. TMTOWTDI!
- Roboprog 12y ago
  I guess that bottom line of what I am trying to say is that not all perl code is unreadable crap. That has more to do with the writer than the language. And, different languages make different things easier. No final "right" or "wrong" choice for all use cases.
  - EdwardDiego 12y ago
    > I guess that bottom line of what I am trying to say is that not all perl code is unreadable crap. That has more to do with the writer than the language. And, different languages make different things easier. I would agree. It's the same issue Scala faces IMO - it doesn't have to be a complex maze of types and implicit conversions and implicit values, you can, if disciplined, write very understandable and clear Scala. Sadly though, it seems a lot of developers aren't disciplined.
    - mst 12y ago
      With great power comes great capacity to write overly clever unmaintainable crap.

iopq 12y ago

It's certainly possible to write functions (subs) with comments about what they do, and use meaningful variable names in Assembly too.

CatMtKing 12y ago

I can read Perl, but the only way you'll get me to read it is to write a script with bugs in it and force me to debug it. It's fun in a masochistic sort of way. Anyway, Python and Haskell are my languages of choice now.