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Buddhism stresses compassion and identifies desire and the ego as the causes of suffering. Steve Jobs was, you could say, "interpersonally abrasive" and made a

Buddhism stresses compassion and identifies desire and the ego as the causes of suffering. Steve Jobs was, you could say, "interpersonally abrasive" and made a fortune by encouraging people to want devices built using slave labor from raw materials whose extraction harms people living nearby. You need a new one every year, too. In that sense, Steve Jobs was about as Buddhist as the "prosperity gospel" people are Christian. Richard Stallman was correct that the death of Steve Jobs was a good thing.

judk 12y ago
Unless you have an argument that Steve Jobs promoted materialism and slavery more than the average human and whoever replaced him in the commercial world, your gravedancing is illogical, beyond its crassness. Who is not on your list of people whose death would be good?
- coldtea 12y ago
  """Unless you have an argument that Steve Jobs promoted materialism and slavery more than the average human and whoever replaced him in the commercial world, your gravedancing is illogical, beyond its crassness.""" Well, I'm as much an Apple fun as everyone, but: he was a ruthless businessman, leader of the one of the biggest companies (if not the biggest in market cap) in the world. If you think even for a momement that that is compatible with not being MORE materialist than the "average human", then I don't know what to say. In fact, his whole life he placed extreme emphasis if not in money itself (which is not the be all end all of materialism), to material items. He devoted his life into building and selling material things. In the process, he exploited cheap labor (when you have the highest profit margins and the largest cash stash in the industry, relying on cheap chinese works in 19th century conditions and not increasing their pay IS the very definition of exploitation), backstabbed those he could (Woz for one), and treated his averaged employee like "a means to an end" instead as people (from the programmers, who got the better treatment, but still were underpaid and forbidden to work for rival companies with secret deals, to the tons of industry and retail employees).
paulhauggis 12y ago
"Richard Stallman" Richard Stallman isn't about freedom. In fact, the GNU is the opposite. True freedom means I give you my software and you can do whatever you want with it. Even if this means closing my changes to the world. The original software is not touched and is still free to be used under the GNU license. The BSD license is true freedom. Instead, we have a license that most companies have to expunge from their code base because if you are even calling a function within code that is open sourced, your software must also be open sourced. Stallman himself has said that he would prefer that open source get mandated by law and used in every organization. He loves all of the places that have had horrific human rights violations for decades and sees no problem with forced "freedom"..as long as it's his thoughts and beliefs that are being forced onto the people. I'm so glad he is quickly becoming irrelevant. "and made a fortune by encouraging people to want devices built using slave labor from raw materials whose extraction harms people living nearby. You need a new one every year, too. Those 'slaves' probably wouldn't even be able to feed their families without companies like Apple. If you want to blame someone for the terrible conditions in those countries, blame the corrupt government. I never see the government take the blame..when they have the ultimate power. Why is that? Also, you don't need a new one every year. I've had the same iPhone for 3 years and it works just fine.
- mtct 12y ago
  "Every man is free to do what he want and nobody can say him anything" "So I'm free to force other to do want I want?" ---- Freedom must be protected and preserved, is not something that naturally happen.
  - Yetanfou 12y ago
    No, your freedom stops where mine starts. In other words, you are not free to limit another's freedom, nor is that person free to do the same to you. How much freedom you end up with depends on where and how you live, it should be clear that someone living in a cabin in the woods can expect more freedom than a city-dweller. Apart from that I'm rather flabbergasted by the continuous fawning over people like Jobs. The man was a sociopath - a type often found in CxO roles for some reason - and not someone worthy of devotion. Study, maybe, to find a way to either cure these people or keep them from positions of influence, but not devotion.
Homunculiheaded 12y ago
I was interested in Buddhism for awhile, and even spent a fair bit of time reading through translated segments of the Pali Cannon. I've seen a critique of Job's "Buddhism" discussed quite a bit, but it's important to consider that the soteriology of Buddhism and Christianity is radically different. A major difference is the time scale and way with which salvation occurs. Christianity focuses on the realization that Christ is the savior, and appropriate adjustment in behavior in a single life time. Buddhism on the other hand is a progress in realizing the dharma over many lifetimes of effort. Paul's conversion happens instantly on the road to Damascus, his change in action is immediate. The salvation of a bodhisattva occurs over the progress of many lifetimes effort, each new lifetime being shaped by the actions and desires of the old. The point being that the binary saved/damned dichotomy used for judgement in Christian theology (ie X is a bad Christian) doesn't make any sense in a Buddhist context. A "bad buddhist" makes no sense as each person is simply working out the consequences of past actions during each successive lifetime until the dharma is finally realized. (edit: just a note that this 'progress' itself is a massive over simplification itself)
- virtualwhys 12y ago
  In the same way that there is no single form of Christianity, neither is there a single form of Buddhism. Certainly the above description of Buddhism has nothing at all to do with Soto or Rinzai Zen traditions, which emphasize this life moment as opposed to some later time when one's house will at last be in order. I am not familiar with other forms of Buddhism (not even Zen beyond the tip of the iceburg), but if we go with the extant teachings (particularly in the Diamond Sutra) Buddha negates self, negates reincarnation, and negates awakening. He didn't leave us much to work with O_o
- 4ccc0f9200a7a 12y ago
  Except that Zen is the school of "sudden enlightenment." Suzuki: "Enlightenment is not some good feeling or some particular state of mind. The state of mind that exists when you sit in the right posture is, itself, enlightenment." It's hard to see how being a capitalist overlord is compatible with any reasonable definition of "right livelihood," which is part of the Eightfold Path. Zen is criticized by other Buddhists for its lack of emphasis on ethics. It's hard to see how being a samurai is compatible with "right action," either. I don't think the question of who is or isn't "really" Buddhist is very interesting. I just think it's annoying to act like Steve Jobs is a good example of anything spiritual because he made pretty things at great cost to other people's lives, the planet, human decency, etc.
kefka 12y ago
This is better than my comment. "what kind of Buddhist was Steve Jobs?" A dead one.
chippy 12y ago
Bill Gates it can be argued has done more to end the suffering of other people, much more than Jobs ever did. But he isn't a Buddhist.
adamlett 12y ago
> Richard Stallman was correct that the death of Steve Jobs was a good thing. "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" Jesus was a pretty good buddhist.
- kybernetikos 12y ago
  To the extent that every now and then someone claims that he went to India to study during the time between the ages of 12 and 30-odd that the gospels say nothing about. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_years_of_Jesus#Claims_of_Jesus_in_India_before_crucifixion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_years_of_Jesus#Claims_of_... Obviously none of it has stuck, with big chunks being acknowledged fabrications. People generally want Jesus to have visited various places important to them which is why the poem that the hymn Jerusalem is based on talks about Jesus walking in Englands green and pleasant land. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem_%28hymn%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem_%28hymn%29 I do think that the teachings of Buddha to do with nonattachment to material possessions fit very well with the teachings of Jesus.
lowmagnet 12y ago
The article actually points out that he could be a pretty horrible leader in his search for the best implementation possible. Did you read it or are you just trying to forward your personal view? Nobody's death is a good thing. Or a bad thing. It's just inevitable. (This is from TFA)
tzs 12y ago
> encouraging people to want devices built using slave labor from raw materials whose extraction harms people living nearby This is rather dishonest of, you isn't it? The above description applies to almost all electronics. Apple does more than any other major device maker to encourage better working conditions and wages in the Chinese factories that build their devices. You can read details here: https://www.apple.com/supplier-responsibility/ https://www.apple.com/supplier-responsibility/
wpietri 12y ago
I agree (as does the article) that Jobs seems to have missed the compassion thing. But I think it's wrong to say his death was a good thing. Before death, there's always a chance for people to learn. After, not so much. Further, although Apple's approach to business is not particularly compassionate, I would have a hard time saying that they are worse than their competitors. Indeed, I think they're better in their focus on making something excellent. That's not everything I'd want, but I think it's better for all concerned than the usual corporate half-assery.

judk 12y ago

Unless you have an argument that Steve Jobs promoted materialism and slavery more than the average human and whoever replaced him in the commercial world, your gravedancing is illogical, beyond its crassness. Who is not on your list of people whose death would be good?

coldtea 12y ago
"""Unless you have an argument that Steve Jobs promoted materialism and slavery more than the average human and whoever replaced him in the commercial world, your gravedancing is illogical, beyond its crassness.""" Well, I'm as much an Apple fun as everyone, but: he was a ruthless businessman, leader of the one of the biggest companies (if not the biggest in market cap) in the world. If you think even for a momement that that is compatible with not being MORE materialist than the "average human", then I don't know what to say. In fact, his whole life he placed extreme emphasis if not in money itself (which is not the be all end all of materialism), to material items. He devoted his life into building and selling material things. In the process, he exploited cheap labor (when you have the highest profit margins and the largest cash stash in the industry, relying on cheap chinese works in 19th century conditions and not increasing their pay IS the very definition of exploitation), backstabbed those he could (Woz for one), and treated his averaged employee like "a means to an end" instead as people (from the programmers, who got the better treatment, but still were underpaid and forbidden to work for rival companies with secret deals, to the tons of industry and retail employees).

paulhauggis 12y ago

"Richard Stallman" Richard Stallman isn't about freedom. In fact, the GNU is the opposite. True freedom means I give you my software and you can do whatever you want with it. Even if this means closing my changes to the world. The original software is not touched and is still free to be used under the GNU license. The BSD license is true freedom. Instead, we have a license that most companies have to expunge from their code base because if you are even calling a function within code that is open sourced, your software must also be open sourced. Stallman himself has said that he would prefer that open source get mandated by law and used in every organization. He loves all of the places that have had horrific human rights violations for decades and sees no problem with forced "freedom"..as long as it's his thoughts and beliefs that are being forced onto the people. I'm so glad he is quickly becoming irrelevant. "and made a fortune by encouraging people to want devices built using slave labor from raw materials whose extraction harms people living nearby. You need a new one every year, too. Those 'slaves' probably wouldn't even be able to feed their families without companies like Apple. If you want to blame someone for the terrible conditions in those countries, blame the corrupt government. I never see the government take the blame..when they have the ultimate power. Why is that? Also, you don't need a new one every year. I've had the same iPhone for 3 years and it works just fine.

mtct 12y ago
"Every man is free to do what he want and nobody can say him anything" "So I'm free to force other to do want I want?" ---- Freedom must be protected and preserved, is not something that naturally happen.
- Yetanfou 12y ago
  No, your freedom stops where mine starts. In other words, you are not free to limit another's freedom, nor is that person free to do the same to you. How much freedom you end up with depends on where and how you live, it should be clear that someone living in a cabin in the woods can expect more freedom than a city-dweller. Apart from that I'm rather flabbergasted by the continuous fawning over people like Jobs. The man was a sociopath - a type often found in CxO roles for some reason - and not someone worthy of devotion. Study, maybe, to find a way to either cure these people or keep them from positions of influence, but not devotion.

Homunculiheaded 12y ago

I was interested in Buddhism for awhile, and even spent a fair bit of time reading through translated segments of the Pali Cannon. I've seen a critique of Job's "Buddhism" discussed quite a bit, but it's important to consider that the soteriology of Buddhism and Christianity is radically different. A major difference is the time scale and way with which salvation occurs. Christianity focuses on the realization that Christ is the savior, and appropriate adjustment in behavior in a single life time. Buddhism on the other hand is a progress in realizing the dharma over many lifetimes of effort. Paul's conversion happens instantly on the road to Damascus, his change in action is immediate. The salvation of a bodhisattva occurs over the progress of many lifetimes effort, each new lifetime being shaped by the actions and desires of the old. The point being that the binary saved/damned dichotomy used for judgement in Christian theology (ie X is a bad Christian) doesn't make any sense in a Buddhist context. A "bad buddhist" makes no sense as each person is simply working out the consequences of past actions during each successive lifetime until the dharma is finally realized. (edit: just a note that this 'progress' itself is a massive over simplification itself)

virtualwhys 12y ago
In the same way that there is no single form of Christianity, neither is there a single form of Buddhism. Certainly the above description of Buddhism has nothing at all to do with Soto or Rinzai Zen traditions, which emphasize this life moment as opposed to some later time when one's house will at last be in order. I am not familiar with other forms of Buddhism (not even Zen beyond the tip of the iceburg), but if we go with the extant teachings (particularly in the Diamond Sutra) Buddha negates self, negates reincarnation, and negates awakening. He didn't leave us much to work with O_o
4ccc0f9200a7a 12y ago
Except that Zen is the school of "sudden enlightenment." Suzuki: "Enlightenment is not some good feeling or some particular state of mind. The state of mind that exists when you sit in the right posture is, itself, enlightenment." It's hard to see how being a capitalist overlord is compatible with any reasonable definition of "right livelihood," which is part of the Eightfold Path. Zen is criticized by other Buddhists for its lack of emphasis on ethics. It's hard to see how being a samurai is compatible with "right action," either. I don't think the question of who is or isn't "really" Buddhist is very interesting. I just think it's annoying to act like Steve Jobs is a good example of anything spiritual because he made pretty things at great cost to other people's lives, the planet, human decency, etc.

kefka 12y ago

This is better than my comment. "what kind of Buddhist was Steve Jobs?" A dead one.

chippy 12y ago

Bill Gates it can be argued has done more to end the suffering of other people, much more than Jobs ever did. But he isn't a Buddhist.

adamlett 12y ago

> Richard Stallman was correct that the death of Steve Jobs was a good thing. "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" Jesus was a pretty good buddhist.

kybernetikos 12y ago
To the extent that every now and then someone claims that he went to India to study during the time between the ages of 12 and 30-odd that the gospels say nothing about. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_years_of_Jesus#Claims_of_Jesus_in_India_before_crucifixion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_years_of_Jesus#Claims_of_... Obviously none of it has stuck, with big chunks being acknowledged fabrications. People generally want Jesus to have visited various places important to them which is why the poem that the hymn Jerusalem is based on talks about Jesus walking in Englands green and pleasant land. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem_%28hymn%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem_%28hymn%29 I do think that the teachings of Buddha to do with nonattachment to material possessions fit very well with the teachings of Jesus.

lowmagnet 12y ago

The article actually points out that he could be a pretty horrible leader in his search for the best implementation possible. Did you read it or are you just trying to forward your personal view? Nobody's death is a good thing. Or a bad thing. It's just inevitable. (This is from TFA)

tzs 12y ago

> encouraging people to want devices built using slave labor from raw materials whose extraction harms people living nearby This is rather dishonest of, you isn't it? The above description applies to almost all electronics. Apple does more than any other major device maker to encourage better working conditions and wages in the Chinese factories that build their devices. You can read details here: https://www.apple.com/supplier-responsibility/ https://www.apple.com/supplier-responsibility/

wpietri 12y ago

I agree (as does the article) that Jobs seems to have missed the compassion thing. But I think it's wrong to say his death was a good thing. Before death, there's always a chance for people to learn. After, not so much. Further, although Apple's approach to business is not particularly compassionate, I would have a hard time saying that they are worse than their competitors. Indeed, I think they're better in their focus on making something excellent. That's not everything I'd want, but I think it's better for all concerned than the usual corporate half-assery.