10 ms·
Vodafone reveals direct government wiretaps
Law Enforcement Disclosure Report: http://www.vodafone.com/content/sustainabilityreport/2014/index/operating_responsibly/privacy_and_security/law_enforcement.html
- digitalengineer 12y agoI feel so save. They must have captured all the terrorists by now.
- nix1 12y agoNice irony. Your comment shouldn't be downvoted.
- mpyne 12y agoCan you point to any safety-related mechanisms that have ever entirely eradicated the unsafe behavior they were meant to protect against? For those mechanisms that are not 100% effective, does that mean they should all be removed completely, since they are not 100% effective?
- danielweber 12y ago"Direct" in the headline is meaning that the government apparently has arbitrary access without requiring warrants. EDIT Fixed confusing phrasing backed on follow-up comments.
- madeofpalk 12y agoI don't feel they're hiding that - they made it very clear and obvious thats what's going on. Vodafone said they "will not receive any form of demand for lawful interception access, as the relevant agencies and authorities already have permanent access to customer communications via their own direct link".
- Oras 12y agoWhen its done in 3rd world countries, western countries stating this is against privacy and violating human rights. But when western countries do it, its to protect national security! Btw I'm not against it, I'm against the way of dealing with it.
- spacefight 12y agoCare to explain why you're not against it? I haven't found a single reason, which justifies to tap on a full comms link of a whole network. Not a single one.
- pageld 12y agoSafety is the only reason I ever get from anyone. "I have nothing to hide and if it finds terrorists, then I'm all for it" is an actual quote. I don't agree with that statement, but it's obviously out there.
- spacefight 12y agoYeah right, a totally wrong illusion of safety.
- pavanred 12y agoIn that case, won't wearing an anklet keep one even safer?
- Oras 12y agoThis statement is true mate .. believe it or not
- arzugula 12y agoThe fact that what you are doing today has been deemed acceptable to the overseers is no guarantee that it will be tomorrow.
- Oras 12y ago
- sp332 12y agothe UK, law enforcement and intelligence agencies must have a warrant That's surprising. The GCHQ was the agency that tapped Google's datacenter fiber. They actually had more-direct access to Google data than the NSA. The firm said it could not specify the countries that have a direct line into its networks, because those countries have laws prohibiting disclosure of surveillance methods. Couldn't someone compile a list of countries with such laws?
- higherpurpose 12y agoWeird that they are not on the BBC site. I assume it's these countries: > In Albania, Egypt, Hungary, India, Malta, Qatar, Romania, South Africa and Turkey, it is unlawful to disclose any information related to wiretapping or interception of the content of phone calls and messages including whether such capabilities exist. http://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/jun/06/vodafone-reveals-secret-wires-allowing-state-surveillance?CMP=twt_gu http://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/jun/06/vodafone-rev...
- LeicaLatte 12y agoYes India for sure
- pjc50 12y agoIt's quite possible that the UK does have warrantless wiretapping and D-notices prevent it from being reported.
- deleted 12y ago[deleted]
- vidarh 12y agoD-notices are not legally binding. They advice about what government would prefer not to have published, some of which may result in legal proceedings. It may scare people off reporting it, though.
- 12y ago
- Shivetya 12y agoThe actual reports and country by country information is really good. I wonder if any retractions will occur? Interesting they can declare disclosure illegal yet disclose that fact at the same time. I would have expected some countries to demand no comment whatsoever So are all countries on this list valuable enough to warrant turning over call information to authorities?
- opendais 12y agohttp://www.vodafone.com/content/sustainabilityreport/2014/index/operating_responsibly/privacy_and_security/law_enforcement/country_by_country.html#country27 http://www.vodafone.com/content/sustainabilityreport/2014/in... Well, I'd say the fact the US isn't there means they are one of the 6 with direct links who don't need a warrant or to bother with any of the other legal niceties. Meh. EDIT: I was wrong, they sold in 9/13. Ah well, my memory isn't perfect.
- tptacek 12y agoVodafone doesn't operate in the US.
- deleted 12y ago[deleted]
- jamescun 12y agoDid Vodafone not have a majority stake in Verizon up until very recently?
- opendais 12y agoIt was 45%, so a minority. I forgot they had sold it in September. :/ http://www.bbc.com/news/business-23933955 http://www.bbc.com/news/business-23933955
- deleted 12y ago[deleted]
- tptacek 12y agoVodafone never owned a controlling interest in Verizon, and doesn't own any of it today. Apart from that: Verizon is not blameless in the NSA debacle. It's just that their blame has nothing to do with Vodafone.
- mikecb 12y ago*Verizon wireless, not Verizon. And likely not one of the companies on Vodaphone's list since Cellco Partnership was operated by Verizon here in the US.
- rasz_pl 12y agoUK is one of those countries with direct access and Vodafone doesnt like it. Recent project TEMPORA ( CIRCUIT / TIMPANI / CLARINET / REMEDY / GERONTIC ) leak gave them some courage to speak up?
- matthewmacleod 12y agoDo they? Or are you, in fact, making that up? There are enough real things to be terrified about.
- furyg3 12y agoThe firm said it could not specify the countries that have a direct line into its networks, because those countries have laws prohibiting disclosure of surveillance methods. In six out of the 29 countries, governments have a permanent link to monitor communications, the BBC understands. So can they list the 23 countries who do not have a direct link to monitor communications?
- elarkin 12y agoLikely not, because that would implicitly expose the other 6.
- furyg3 12y agoTruly a business with no ethics. An ethical company would publicly say "We'd like to invest, do business, and bring tax revenue into your country. Unfortunately there are several laws which you have which prevent us from doing so."
- freehunter 12y agoAnd that "ethical business" would either cease to exist due to more profitable companies eating them up or would have their shareholders force the benevolent board of directors out of the company and they would go where the profits were anyway. Companies cannot be ethical or unethical. They exist for no other reason than to make money.
- ZoFreX 12y ago> or would have their shareholders force the benevolent board of directors out of the company and they would go where the profits were anyway This is an oft-repeated misconception on Hacker News but shareholders don't have absolute power, profit is not the sole or most important driver of business decisions, and it absolutely is possible to run an ethical, publically-listed company.
- k-mcgrady 12y ago
- richiverse 12y agoMaybe we should have some kind of tor phone that randomizes phone numbers and scrambles the sound over the wire and reconstitutes the sound through some well engineered Kickstarter phone. This would render most govt taps moot.
- Zikes 12y agoI imagine it would be pretty difficult to set up an efficient relay system without some serious multiplexing. Better to just migrate to VOIP, I'd say. Then you could literally route your calls through Tor.
- deathhand 12y ago> literally route your calls through Tor My god the latency.
- creichert 12y agoOut of technical interest I have tried to at least get a proof-of-concept Tor phone which works over WiFi. https://github.com/creichert/phonion https://github.com/creichert/phonion It uses TorChat for messaging and Mumble for VOIP (forced over TCP). At one point I had it working on the Raspberry Pi as well. It is not trivial to build at the moment. Though it can successfully make calls, I am not advertising this as secure or anonymous. It is simply an experiment I did out of interest.
- forgottenpass 12y agop2p encrypted voip is already a thing. You can download apps for it today.
- shutupalready 12y agoThis surveillance apparatus is built and operated by programmers and engineers. It goes against the beliefs of 90% of programmers and engineers that I know. Software people tend to place very high value on privacy and due process, and they tend to be anti-authoritarian. I can't understand why they haven't been leaking these massive violations to the press and public. They don't need to do "a Snowden". They don't have to even quit their job. If anyone in the world can engineer an anonymous leak, surely a software engineer building or operating the secret surveillance apparatus can do it. EDIT: The public is indifferent when it's abstract or they think it doesn't include them. I think most people would be horrified if a million snippets of mundane conversation were leaked from a complicit telecom, and people heard their own voice in there.
- rayiner 12y ago> We all know that this goes against the beliefs of 90% of programmers and engineers. I don't know if your number is accurate for software developers in Silicon Valley, much less the engineering community as a whole. The anti-authoritarian/utopian strain of software developers is a distinct minority. In my experience, engineers as a group are pragmatic and lean a little bit conservative. They're pyramid builders--they build the infrastructure that sustains the status quo.
- spacefight 12y agoLet's cast a HN vote?
- tptacek 12y agoOh, look. Ron Paul is President!
- notastartup 12y agoif they were pragmatic and leaning towards conservative we would already have a union. We are anything but, just like the pyramid builders, we are slaves, build whatever is demanded, don't question it unless you are paid to, if you go crazy, you will be replaced by another slave.
- rustyconover 12y agoI'm shocked, shocked to find that wiretapping is going on in here! -- said no-one ever without irony after Snowden's leaks. My default assumption is now everything with tapped, everything is monitored and recorded and while cryptography can help it is increasingly hard to trust both the implementation and correct use by both parties. The further this belief and approach spreads, the sooner we'll see constructive steps towards restoring privacy, security and trust in communications.
- k-mcgrady 12y ago>> "The firm said it could not specify the countries that have a direct line into its networks, because those countries have laws prohibiting disclosure of surveillance methods." I find this such a bullshit excuse. What will the consequences be realistically if you disclose? Disclosure is the only way these laws are going to get repealed. I'm glad the UK isn't one of the 6 countries but as a Vodafone user this makes me sick. 1) Can other countries listen into my calls or as a Vodafone UK customer am I safe? 2) If I travel to one of these countries and use my Vodafone service is the country now able to monitor all my communications?
- cottonseed 12y agoFrom the Vodafone report [0], UK section: > Section 19 of the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 prohibits disclosing the existence of any lawful interception warrant and the existence of any requirement to provide assistance in relation to a warrant. This duty of secrecy extends to all matters relating to warranted lawful interception. Data relating to lawful interception warrants cannot be published. Accordingly, to publish aggregate statistics would be to disclose the existence of one or more lawful interception warrants. This makes it pretty clear the UK prohibits disclosure. Sorry. [0] http://www.vodafone.com/content/sustainabilityreport/2014/index/operating_responsibly/privacy_and_security/law_enforcement/country_by_country.html http://www.vodafone.com/content/sustainabilityreport/2014/in... edit: I think you can safely assume your phone calls are being monitored no matter what country you are in or who your phone company is.
- 7952 12y agoYou have to remember that these people talk to each other. They want to be able to have discrete chats with politicians and other powerful people. Activism on privacy would be ever so rude and may threaten that relationship!
- glitchdout 12y agoI'd say the BBC report is wrong. Vodafone's report says: > Under s.5 of the Intelligence Services Act 1994 (“ISA”) the Secretary of State may, on an application made by the Security Service, the Intelligence Services or GCHQ, issue a warrant in respect of any property so specified or in respect of wireless telegraphy. There is the possibility that this power is broad enough to permit government direct access to Vodafone’s network by the Security Services in some instances. If the possibility exists then you bet GCHQ is using it. Sorry, your own country can listen into your calls :(
- cstross 12y agoThis has been going on since 2003: it's not new. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/07/11/greek_mobile_wiretap_latest/ http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/07/11/greek_mobile_wiretap... TL:DR; Vodafone Greece is known to have been bugged, to spy on the lines of top government officials including the Prime Minister by persons unknown. Kostas Tsalikidis, Vodafone Greece’s head of network design, was found hanged in a supposed suicide in 2005. As far as I know, nobody was identified, much less charged/tried/convicted in this scandal. Here's an in-depth report in IEEE Spectrum: http://spectrum.ieee.org/telecom/security/the-athens-affair http://spectrum.ieee.org/telecom/security/the-athens-affair The take-away I got from this is that the "hackers" must have had highly specific knowledge of how Ericsson AXE exchanges allow lawful intercepts, plus knowledge of how Vodafone Greece's backbone was configured, and the credentials to install diversions in that system. Which screams "Five Eyes". And if it is known to have been happening in Greece prior to 2004, it was probably going on in other national Vodafone subsidiaries at the same time or even earlier.
- happyscrappy 12y agoYou mean the 14 eyes http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UKUSA_Agreement#9_Eyes.2C_14_Eyes.2C_and_other_.22third_parties.22 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UKUSA_Agreement#9_Eyes.2C_14_Ey... Eventually you hate every western country. Up is down and Russia and China are the symbols of freedom.
- coldtea 12y ago>TL:DR; Vodafone Greece is known to have been bugged, to spy on the lines of top government officials including the Prime Minister by persons unknown. Kostas Tsalikidis, Vodafone Greece’s head of network design, was found hanged in a supposed suicide in 2005. As far as I know, nobody was identified, much less charged/tried/convicted in this scandal. This is slightly different though. The case you mention is about the discovery of the Greek government being bugged (obviously by another country, there were specific allegations -- and connections -- against an Embassy operating there). Vodafone's recent revelation is about the governments themselves asking Vodafone for a direct line to its data, in their own country.
- 12y ago
- andywood 12y agoWe know not to be surprised by all this by this point, right? I mean, regardless of whether you think this is analogous to, say, a speed trap - but in cyber space - regardless, we aren't surprised? Yes?
- ninv 12y agoSo moment a baby comes out of the uterus, doctor should read him/her the Miranda Warning. Kid! everything is bugged, we are watching and recording everything. any thing you say or type, will be used against you in some kangaroo court. .... You have the right to consult an attorney and his cell phone and emails are bugged too. So nothing is confidential.... Good luck
- contingencies 12y agoHah! They miss one of the most glaring thefts of metadata in the world, AMDOCS 'outsourced billing'. They do at least mention that: It is possible to learn a great deal about an individual’s movements, interests and relationships from an analysis of metadata and other data associated with their use of a communications network, which we refer to in this report generally as ‘communications data’ – and without ever accessing the actual content of any communications. In many countries, agencies and authorities therefore have legal powers to order operators to disclose large volumes of this kind of communications data. Well, the game was won long ago by these guys, who are Israeli (widely considered Mossad affiliated) though they did recently reshuffle their corporate entities to pretend to be American. Partial client list at http://www.amdocs.com/About/Success/Pages/customer-success.aspx http://www.amdocs.com/About/Success/Pages/customer-success.a... ... includes Vodafone in at least these markets: global, Australia, India, Germany, Netherlands, Romania, UK.