4 ms·

While interesting, I find the narrative pinpointing the issue on a single engineer behavior a bit too convenient to be believable.

by seren 12y ago

fleitz 12y ago
Why? Have you never fixed a bug in your own code, or not followed every single one of your companies' procedures?
- watwut 12y ago
  Of course people do mistakes and fail to follow procedures. That is why the company should have processes to catch dangerous mistakes and omissions in place. If one low level guy can cause such huge problems, then there is something very wrong with the way whole process works.
- seren 12y ago
  I am a SW engineer currently working in a regulated industry, and there is no procedure in place for me to fix something quickly behind everybody's back. The code should be at least reviewed, integrated and tested by 3 independent people. And the issue and the resolution action would have been reviewed/signed off at the system level as well. So it would be very unlikely that I could hide something for years without suspicion. This is in a way cumbersome and annoying but it is understandable why it is put in place this way. I used to work in consumer electronics, where I could commit whatever I wanted without any kind of supervision or checks, but this is generally not something you can do when it is a matter of life and death.
  - TheSpiceIsLife 12y ago
    That being the case, what is your opinion of what is going on here?
    - seren 12y ago
      It is possible a single engineer was negligent or even malicious, but I would rather believe the whole organization was at the very least encouraging a culture of "do whatever to be ready at the end of the quarter and I don't want any detail" (orally of course) You can't be reckless in a place where everyone is paying really close attention to safety and regulations. On the other hand if you are in environment where everyone is pretty lenient, it is much easier to slip between the checks. But, from a journalistic point of view, even if the story is not fabricated, it is a better story to have a villain, than trying to convey to the readership how complex organizations (mis)behave.
  - calinet6 12y ago
    In the situation you describe above, it would be nearly impossible for the defect to appear in the first place. You wouldn't need to hide anything for years, because it would never need to be fixed. Furthermore, when trust is placed in the system and blame not given to the individual, then the momentum is to improve the final quality, not to hide a defect. The problem would have been fixed as soon as it was realized without a need to hide, fear, or cover up. No one would be blamed and no one held responsible, and the problem may never have escalated. The system was poor, therefore the quality was poor. This was not an individual's fault. Quality is a systems problem, plain and simple.
dccoolgai 12y ago
Yeah, my thoughts exactly... I wonder if the project managers who pressured him to cut corners to save time are also getting fired...
forgottenpass 12y ago
As an engineer that works on safety critical stuff I see it as GM finding a fall guy, and/or having laughable-if-it-wasn't-so-tragic controls in place. Edit: The bbc report says 15 were fired, half were senior legal and engineering executives. To me the issue stops being DeGiorgio's fuckup, but how so many other folks were incentivized to roll with the fuckup. The fuckup is bad, but the the environment that permitted it and later didn't correct it is the real danger. But don't worry, GM assures us that the Valukas report doesn't find a conspiracy or cover-up.
- jusben1369 12y ago
  I think it can be both. It can be a single guy who is responsible for the switch being deliberately misleading through acts and omissions. Then it can be the chain of command above and around him as well. To have GM yesterday fire 15 people - including many senior execs - and then today accuse them of copping out and finding a fall guy and planting the media story doesn't make a lot of sense. It's possible one of the execs who was fired leaked this if it was in fact leaked/planted.
  - TheSpiceIsLife 12y ago
    All of the above, always. I highly doubt the legal / regulatory staff and the HR and PR staff in large corporations are stupid, you can bet they've covered every angle. It's the scapegoat (the single engineer), it's the staff around him, it's the intentionally leaked email, it's the exec who's a plant in the fired group, who will gave a job next week with some other auto manufacturer. Is there a term 'Public Relations Theatre'? If not, I coin it now. Everyone's got everyone else's back, and hands in each others pockets. Maybe someone will appear to take the fall, but behind the scenes that person will be looked after. Call me cynical, or maybe realistic?
    - jusben1369 12y ago
      Interesting study on cynical people and dementia FYI: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/10861276/Cynics-three-times-more-likely-to-suffer-from-dementia.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/10861276/Cyn...

While interesting, I find the narrative pinpointing the issue on a single engineer behavior a bit too convenient to be believable.

by seren 12y ago

While interesting, I find the narrative pinpointing the issue on a single engineer behavior a bit too convenient to be believable.

fleitz 12y ago

Why? Have you never fixed a bug in your own code, or not followed every single one of your companies' procedures?

watwut 12y ago
Of course people do mistakes and fail to follow procedures. That is why the company should have processes to catch dangerous mistakes and omissions in place. If one low level guy can cause such huge problems, then there is something very wrong with the way whole process works.
seren 12y ago
I am a SW engineer currently working in a regulated industry, and there is no procedure in place for me to fix something quickly behind everybody's back. The code should be at least reviewed, integrated and tested by 3 independent people. And the issue and the resolution action would have been reviewed/signed off at the system level as well. So it would be very unlikely that I could hide something for years without suspicion. This is in a way cumbersome and annoying but it is understandable why it is put in place this way. I used to work in consumer electronics, where I could commit whatever I wanted without any kind of supervision or checks, but this is generally not something you can do when it is a matter of life and death.
- TheSpiceIsLife 12y ago
  That being the case, what is your opinion of what is going on here?
  - seren 12y ago
    It is possible a single engineer was negligent or even malicious, but I would rather believe the whole organization was at the very least encouraging a culture of "do whatever to be ready at the end of the quarter and I don't want any detail" (orally of course) You can't be reckless in a place where everyone is paying really close attention to safety and regulations. On the other hand if you are in environment where everyone is pretty lenient, it is much easier to slip between the checks. But, from a journalistic point of view, even if the story is not fabricated, it is a better story to have a villain, than trying to convey to the readership how complex organizations (mis)behave.
- calinet6 12y ago
  In the situation you describe above, it would be nearly impossible for the defect to appear in the first place. You wouldn't need to hide anything for years, because it would never need to be fixed. Furthermore, when trust is placed in the system and blame not given to the individual, then the momentum is to improve the final quality, not to hide a defect. The problem would have been fixed as soon as it was realized without a need to hide, fear, or cover up. No one would be blamed and no one held responsible, and the problem may never have escalated. The system was poor, therefore the quality was poor. This was not an individual's fault. Quality is a systems problem, plain and simple.

dccoolgai 12y ago

Yeah, my thoughts exactly... I wonder if the project managers who pressured him to cut corners to save time are also getting fired...

forgottenpass 12y ago

As an engineer that works on safety critical stuff I see it as GM finding a fall guy, and/or having laughable-if-it-wasn't-so-tragic controls in place. Edit: The bbc report says 15 were fired, half were senior legal and engineering executives. To me the issue stops being DeGiorgio's fuckup, but how so many other folks were incentivized to roll with the fuckup. The fuckup is bad, but the the environment that permitted it and later didn't correct it is the real danger. But don't worry, GM assures us that the Valukas report doesn't find a conspiracy or cover-up.

jusben1369 12y ago
I think it can be both. It can be a single guy who is responsible for the switch being deliberately misleading through acts and omissions. Then it can be the chain of command above and around him as well. To have GM yesterday fire 15 people - including many senior execs - and then today accuse them of copping out and finding a fall guy and planting the media story doesn't make a lot of sense. It's possible one of the execs who was fired leaked this if it was in fact leaked/planted.
- TheSpiceIsLife 12y ago
  All of the above, always. I highly doubt the legal / regulatory staff and the HR and PR staff in large corporations are stupid, you can bet they've covered every angle. It's the scapegoat (the single engineer), it's the staff around him, it's the intentionally leaked email, it's the exec who's a plant in the fired group, who will gave a job next week with some other auto manufacturer. Is there a term 'Public Relations Theatre'? If not, I coin it now. Everyone's got everyone else's back, and hands in each others pockets. Maybe someone will appear to take the fall, but behind the scenes that person will be looked after. Call me cynical, or maybe realistic?
  - jusben1369 12y ago
    Interesting study on cynical people and dementia FYI: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/10861276/Cynics-three-times-more-likely-to-suffer-from-dementia.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/10861276/Cyn...