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Fixing the English Ph.D; that's the only field they mention. They can make inferences about related fields but would have a hard time with other fields (STEM f

Fixing the English Ph.D; that's the only field they mention. They can make inferences about related fields but would have a hard time with other fields (STEM fields and even psychology).

dnautics 12y ago
"The M.L.A. report estimates that only sixty per cent of newly-minted Ph.D.s will find tenure-track jobs after graduation" It's even worse for sciences. But I think there are some insights in common; worth a read.
- dragonwriter 12y ago
  OTOH, in the sciences, there's probably a greater likelihood that newly-minted Ph.D.s aren't wanting tenure-track jobs. There's not a lot of work specifically for English Ph.D.s in industry...
- dkural 12y ago
  That number is entirely false by the way. They divide the total number of open positions by number of new students for that year only. The denominator, of course, should include everyone looking for a tenure-track job: The entirety of post-grad pool for a few years, part-time faculty in adjunct / teaching jobs, foreign grad students delaying graduation (thus can stay in the country) due to lack of jobs, etc.
  - Retric 12y ago
    Assuming the numbers are reasonably stable it's fairly accurate. Basicly, they don't care if someone waited 10 years they found a tenure track job so there 'in'. Which means some of this years graduates may a need to wait 10 years but the ratio should be close to jobs / graduates.
    - jhardcastle 12y ago
      But they only compared it against job listings on their own association website. This seems like incredibly lazy statistical research. They didn't look hard for a number, but instead accepted the first, easiest number they could generate as a "rough figure."
- joshvm 12y ago
  Once you get your doctorate, the logical step for most STEM graduates is a postdoctoral position. There aren't many of these at all, most departments have double the number of PhD students than they do postdocs. So right off the bat, half the students will be finding jobs elsewhere. Industry (hardware/software/analytics/whatever) pays more, is often more fulfilling and although your work isn't completely open it is usually more obviously relevant than your PhD. So 60% will find tenure track jobs? Well that's obviously true. If there are only about half the postdoc positions compared to the number of new PhDs then only half the PhD students will be getting tenure track jobs. Most postdoc positions are 2-3 years and are filled by newly minted PhDs. The logical evolution for most people is to do a postdoc (or two) and wait until their research is renowned enough for the university to offer a lectureship. You do that for another few years until they offer you a Readership, wait a bit longer and you get your coveted Professorship. If you're really lucky and you're top of your field you can hit assistant professor by 30-35 in the UK. Until you get the all-important lectureship offer you're a contract worker and there is always the prospect that funding will be cut and you won't be able to renew your position. Remember that once you've done your postdoc there are even fewer positions to be promoted into. Doing a PhD has largely put me off the idea of staying in academia, I think this is becoming more common. Being a professor would be nice, good pay (£60k min) lots of travel, but it's a very stressful job, you have no time to do any real research beyond project management and by that time you're thoroughly institutionalised. Should point out that my experience is from physics, ymmv. On the plus side I don't know anyone who has struggled to find a job from my department; plenty go into research in non university groups like Microsoft, the British Antarctic Survey, the Met Office, etc.
  - BellsOnSunday 12y ago
    > If you're really lucky and you're top of your field you can hit assistant professor by 30-35 in the UK. This role doesn't really exist on the UK, the equivalent is that of Lecturer/Senior Lecturer. I think you're overstating the barrier to entry -- it's not that high unless you're fixed on a top university. In CS,I know lots of people younger than 35 with SL jobs. Getting to the level or prof after that is another matter but on the whole I think that should be hard.
- sidww2 12y ago
  Becoming a professor is hardly the only reason to do a PhD in the sciences.

Fixing the English Ph.D; that's the only field they mention. They can make inferences about related fields but would have a hard time with other fields (STEM fields and even psychology).

dnautics 12y ago

"The M.L.A. report estimates that only sixty per cent of newly-minted Ph.D.s will find tenure-track jobs after graduation" It's even worse for sciences. But I think there are some insights in common; worth a read.

dragonwriter 12y ago
OTOH, in the sciences, there's probably a greater likelihood that newly-minted Ph.D.s aren't wanting tenure-track jobs. There's not a lot of work specifically for English Ph.D.s in industry...
dkural 12y ago
That number is entirely false by the way. They divide the total number of open positions by number of new students for that year only. The denominator, of course, should include everyone looking for a tenure-track job: The entirety of post-grad pool for a few years, part-time faculty in adjunct / teaching jobs, foreign grad students delaying graduation (thus can stay in the country) due to lack of jobs, etc.
- Retric 12y ago
  Assuming the numbers are reasonably stable it's fairly accurate. Basicly, they don't care if someone waited 10 years they found a tenure track job so there 'in'. Which means some of this years graduates may a need to wait 10 years but the ratio should be close to jobs / graduates.
  - jhardcastle 12y ago
    But they only compared it against job listings on their own association website. This seems like incredibly lazy statistical research. They didn't look hard for a number, but instead accepted the first, easiest number they could generate as a "rough figure."
joshvm 12y ago
Once you get your doctorate, the logical step for most STEM graduates is a postdoctoral position. There aren't many of these at all, most departments have double the number of PhD students than they do postdocs. So right off the bat, half the students will be finding jobs elsewhere. Industry (hardware/software/analytics/whatever) pays more, is often more fulfilling and although your work isn't completely open it is usually more obviously relevant than your PhD. So 60% will find tenure track jobs? Well that's obviously true. If there are only about half the postdoc positions compared to the number of new PhDs then only half the PhD students will be getting tenure track jobs. Most postdoc positions are 2-3 years and are filled by newly minted PhDs. The logical evolution for most people is to do a postdoc (or two) and wait until their research is renowned enough for the university to offer a lectureship. You do that for another few years until they offer you a Readership, wait a bit longer and you get your coveted Professorship. If you're really lucky and you're top of your field you can hit assistant professor by 30-35 in the UK. Until you get the all-important lectureship offer you're a contract worker and there is always the prospect that funding will be cut and you won't be able to renew your position. Remember that once you've done your postdoc there are even fewer positions to be promoted into. Doing a PhD has largely put me off the idea of staying in academia, I think this is becoming more common. Being a professor would be nice, good pay (£60k min) lots of travel, but it's a very stressful job, you have no time to do any real research beyond project management and by that time you're thoroughly institutionalised. Should point out that my experience is from physics, ymmv. On the plus side I don't know anyone who has struggled to find a job from my department; plenty go into research in non university groups like Microsoft, the British Antarctic Survey, the Met Office, etc.
- BellsOnSunday 12y ago
  > If you're really lucky and you're top of your field you can hit assistant professor by 30-35 in the UK. This role doesn't really exist on the UK, the equivalent is that of Lecturer/Senior Lecturer. I think you're overstating the barrier to entry -- it's not that high unless you're fixed on a top university. In CS,I know lots of people younger than 35 with SL jobs. Getting to the level or prof after that is another matter but on the whole I think that should be hard.
sidww2 12y ago
Becoming a professor is hardly the only reason to do a PhD in the sciences.