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This is interesting because it shows a specific mechanism by which smart kids of non-college-educated parents drop out. She failed a test in her first month in

by tlb 12y ago

This is interesting because it shows a specific mechanism by which smart kids of non-college-educated parents drop out. She failed a test in her first month in college, and her mother told her maybe she wasn't meant to be there. I vaguely remember failing a test early in college too, but it never would have occurred to my (intelligentsia-class) parents that I wasn't meant to be educated. I can only imagine how discouraging that feels.

Tyr42 12y ago
I wonder what the data says for people with "Tiger moms", even if they are first generation college students. Is that level of encouragement helpful, in comparison?
reubenmorais 12y ago
Her mom's doubt certainly makes things worse, but I think the mechanism in motion in this case is best described by Eric Raymond's "Curse of the Gifted" [0]. She's smart, intuitive, and hadn't had any trouble in academia before. When things get really complicated in college, everything collapses, and it takes a lot of effort and support to get back on your feet. Having college educated parents helps with the support part, but it doesn't prevent you from collapsing in the first place. [0] http://www.vanadac.com/~dajhorn/novelties/ESR%20-%20Curse%20Of%20The%20Gifted.html http://www.vanadac.com/~dajhorn/novelties/ESR%20-%20Curse%20...
- thaumasiotes 12y ago
  Quick fact check: she's not smart. She's smart only in comparison to the rest of her high school, and the article points out she was admitted under UT's affirmative action program, wherein (for Austin) if you outperform 93% of your high school classmates, they let you in. But the article also points out that she scored the equivalent of a 1030 on the SAT. She's barely above average for the ACT-taking population of Texas as a whole (she scored 22 vs a state average of 21).
  - judk 12y ago
    Define "smart". The ACT is taken by college aspiring high schoolers. If 22 is top 10% of her whole school, she had some sort of personal cleverness to overcome her near-completely unintellectual community.
    - thaumasiotes 12y ago
      > The ACT is taken by college aspiring high schoolers. Not true, it's taken by a self-selecting minority of college-aspiring high schoolers. The SAT-taking population is far, far more representative than the ACT-taking population. In isolation, that actually makes an ACT percentile better than it would appear, but there are other effects around. In 2005 22 was the 62nd percentile among ACT takers nationwide (21 was the 55th). Assuming ACT takers are mostly representative of the population, this girl is smarter than 55-62% of US high school students, roughly as smart as 0-7% of them, and dumber than the remaining 38%. For a college student, this is not an inspiring figure. > If 22 is top 10% of her whole school, she had some sort of personal cleverness to overcome her near-completely unintellectual community. No, the top 7% figure is for GPA. And you don't need to overcome anything to be at the top of a group that isn't competing for the position. For any group, there will always be a top 10%.
    - streptomycin 12y ago
      She's not "smart" relative to her classmates. http://bealonghorn.utexas.edu/whyut/profile/scores http://bealonghorn.utexas.edu/whyut/profile/scores Average ACT is 28. 25th percentile is 25. She got a 22.
      - judk 12y ago
        This comparison is to the wrong cohort. She was among the top of her high school cohort. That's the point -- among a pool of people in the community he was raised in, she rose above the pack, didn't come through a culture the tests are optimized to select for.
  - hudibras 12y ago
    The article says she's getting A's and B's in her freshman chemistry course at UT. What else does she have to do to meet your criteria for "smart?"
- scott_s 12y ago
  If the primary effect was "smart kid hits wall when natural smarts aren't enough," then we would see drop-out rates consistent across socioeconomic status. Many kids in college have those moments. What the data tells us is that the ones with the social and economic infrastructure in place to see it for what it is - a minor setback - tend to graduate more. That indicates to me that it is inaccurate to elevate this phenomenon higher than the social and economic support structures.
- orbifold 12y ago
  She is really not all that smart, nursing is something you would learn at a vocational school in other countries and I can't imagine the statistics they had to learn in the first year were harder than what you usually would learn in an advanced high school class. Being smart would mean that you are able to absorb new material quickly, which she obviously failed to do.
  - jrs99 12y ago
    nursing has changed.
- Dewie 12y ago
  > in this case is best described by Eric Raymond's "Curse of the Gifted" [0]. She's smart, intuitive, and hadn't had any trouble in academia before. When things get really complicated in college, everything collapses, and it takes a lot of effort and support to get back on your feet. Might as well just call it spoilt brat syndrome. They were never given any challenges and they never sought them out (intellectually anyway, it seems). Then a few obstacles comes along and they collapse, never having had to deal with such things before. Then woe is them for having been lulled into a false sense of security all their life, including their parents. Grade inflation and overoptimistic parents are probably partly to blame for this. But I have a hard time feeling sorry for these spoilt brats. Oh, so you actually have to work in order to get an A, or even work for a measly B? Life truly is unjust for demanding anything from you.
  - reubenmorais 12y ago
    >They were never given any challenges and they never sought them out This is the point - basic education and high schools aren't challenging students enough to prepare them to higher ed. If in addition to that you also don't have adults with higher education in your life to use as a reference, it makes it pretty hard to realize that you're not actually that good. Who wants to criticize themselves when all they hear is praise?
eruditely 12y ago
How the fuck does failing a test indicate anything that harsh? You could fail 10 tests for all that matters as long as it is indicative of something else or w/e. How can any of that ever be indicative of such negative BS unless you replace 'grades' with 'mental congruence metric' which does not exist. As long as you know the grade is not representative of you, you're all good. WTF that level of external validation seeking will destroy you.

by tlb 12y ago

Tyr42 12y ago

I wonder what the data says for people with "Tiger moms", even if they are first generation college students. Is that level of encouragement helpful, in comparison?

reubenmorais 12y ago

Her mom's doubt certainly makes things worse, but I think the mechanism in motion in this case is best described by Eric Raymond's "Curse of the Gifted" [0]. She's smart, intuitive, and hadn't had any trouble in academia before. When things get really complicated in college, everything collapses, and it takes a lot of effort and support to get back on your feet. Having college educated parents helps with the support part, but it doesn't prevent you from collapsing in the first place. [0] http://www.vanadac.com/~dajhorn/novelties/ESR%20-%20Curse%20Of%20The%20Gifted.html http://www.vanadac.com/~dajhorn/novelties/ESR%20-%20Curse%20...

thaumasiotes 12y ago
Quick fact check: she's not smart. She's smart only in comparison to the rest of her high school, and the article points out she was admitted under UT's affirmative action program, wherein (for Austin) if you outperform 93% of your high school classmates, they let you in. But the article also points out that she scored the equivalent of a 1030 on the SAT. She's barely above average for the ACT-taking population of Texas as a whole (she scored 22 vs a state average of 21).
- judk 12y ago
  Define "smart". The ACT is taken by college aspiring high schoolers. If 22 is top 10% of her whole school, she had some sort of personal cleverness to overcome her near-completely unintellectual community.
  - thaumasiotes 12y ago
    > The ACT is taken by college aspiring high schoolers. Not true, it's taken by a self-selecting minority of college-aspiring high schoolers. The SAT-taking population is far, far more representative than the ACT-taking population. In isolation, that actually makes an ACT percentile better than it would appear, but there are other effects around. In 2005 22 was the 62nd percentile among ACT takers nationwide (21 was the 55th). Assuming ACT takers are mostly representative of the population, this girl is smarter than 55-62% of US high school students, roughly as smart as 0-7% of them, and dumber than the remaining 38%. For a college student, this is not an inspiring figure. > If 22 is top 10% of her whole school, she had some sort of personal cleverness to overcome her near-completely unintellectual community. No, the top 7% figure is for GPA. And you don't need to overcome anything to be at the top of a group that isn't competing for the position. For any group, there will always be a top 10%.
  - streptomycin 12y ago
    She's not "smart" relative to her classmates. http://bealonghorn.utexas.edu/whyut/profile/scores http://bealonghorn.utexas.edu/whyut/profile/scores Average ACT is 28. 25th percentile is 25. She got a 22.
    - judk 12y ago
      This comparison is to the wrong cohort. She was among the top of her high school cohort. That's the point -- among a pool of people in the community he was raised in, she rose above the pack, didn't come through a culture the tests are optimized to select for.
- hudibras 12y ago
  The article says she's getting A's and B's in her freshman chemistry course at UT. What else does she have to do to meet your criteria for "smart?"
scott_s 12y ago
If the primary effect was "smart kid hits wall when natural smarts aren't enough," then we would see drop-out rates consistent across socioeconomic status. Many kids in college have those moments. What the data tells us is that the ones with the social and economic infrastructure in place to see it for what it is - a minor setback - tend to graduate more. That indicates to me that it is inaccurate to elevate this phenomenon higher than the social and economic support structures.
orbifold 12y ago
She is really not all that smart, nursing is something you would learn at a vocational school in other countries and I can't imagine the statistics they had to learn in the first year were harder than what you usually would learn in an advanced high school class. Being smart would mean that you are able to absorb new material quickly, which she obviously failed to do.
- jrs99 12y ago
  nursing has changed.
Dewie 12y ago
> in this case is best described by Eric Raymond's "Curse of the Gifted" [0]. She's smart, intuitive, and hadn't had any trouble in academia before. When things get really complicated in college, everything collapses, and it takes a lot of effort and support to get back on your feet. Might as well just call it spoilt brat syndrome. They were never given any challenges and they never sought them out (intellectually anyway, it seems). Then a few obstacles comes along and they collapse, never having had to deal with such things before. Then woe is them for having been lulled into a false sense of security all their life, including their parents. Grade inflation and overoptimistic parents are probably partly to blame for this. But I have a hard time feeling sorry for these spoilt brats. Oh, so you actually have to work in order to get an A, or even work for a measly B? Life truly is unjust for demanding anything from you.
- reubenmorais 12y ago
  >They were never given any challenges and they never sought them out This is the point - basic education and high schools aren't challenging students enough to prepare them to higher ed. If in addition to that you also don't have adults with higher education in your life to use as a reference, it makes it pretty hard to realize that you're not actually that good. Who wants to criticize themselves when all they hear is praise?

eruditely 12y ago

How the fuck does failing a test indicate anything that harsh? You could fail 10 tests for all that matters as long as it is indicative of something else or w/e. How can any of that ever be indicative of such negative BS unless you replace 'grades' with 'mental congruence metric' which does not exist. As long as you know the grade is not representative of you, you're all good. WTF that level of external validation seeking will destroy you.