8 ms·

For the record, the demonstrated effect of US tech workers visa caps is less jobs for US-born workers too (as the economy is artificially slowed down as a whole

For the record, the demonstrated effect of US tech workers visa caps is less jobs for US-born workers too (as the economy is artificially slowed down as a whole). For instance it is estimated that during the recession over 200,000 jobs for US-born workers weren't created due to immigration policy restrictions: http://www.renewoureconomy.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/pnae_h1b.pdf http://www.renewoureconomy.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/pn...

drivingmenuts 12y ago
Sounds to me like Businesses are spitefully avoiding creating jobs that they can't give to imported labor. I get that H1Bs are cheaper, and now, you can bring them and their wives over, but why not just go there and save the rest of us having listen to you whine about not being able to find people, when it's really about finding people at sub-market prices?
- arjn 12y ago
  Thats funny. I'm an H1B and am definitely not cheaper than my US counterparts. So don't generalize.
  - protomyth 12y ago
    Your case shouldn't be generalized either. Strangely, I'm getting a lot of 404's when trying to find the actual stats on the Dept of Labor website.
    - enraged_camel 12y ago
      The parent is not generalizing. The first step of the application process, not just for H1B but for all employment-based visas (including green card), is to submit a ton of evidence to the Department of Labor that proves that you are being paid at least the median salary for your position in the region you are employed in. You can read more about that here (second paragraph): http://www.dol.gov/whd/immigration/h1b.htm http://www.dol.gov/whd/immigration/h1b.htm Do some employers game this system? Sure. But doing so is risky and repeat offenders can get blacklisted by the USCIS.
      - protomyth 12y ago
        My own experience is that H1-Bs were cheap consultant fodder, but that was from the late 90's. Hire a bunch of folks from India under H-1B, place them at companies, and pay them lower (non-consultant wages, poor benefits), then collect the difference the higher bill rate. I can name a couple of companies in the Twin Cities that pulled that stunt. The above is my generalization of my experience as the GP and GGP did. I saw that page, but I was looking for the actual wage stats and kept running into 404s (including one from that page).
        enraged_camel 12y ago
        Like I said, the system can be gamed. But that's not an argument against hiring foreign workers. It's an argument for improving the system to make it more robust.
        protomyth 12y ago
        No, its not an argument against hiring foreign workers. It is an argument that the current system is broken. I would prefer they do a very ungovernment thing and scrap it then replace it (without a gap / carrying over the workers) with something rethought. I would particularly be happier with something based on automatic worker visas for graduates of US universities, applying the permit to the spouse also, and no specific company assignment. This sponsored stuff keeps everyones wages down by not providing H-1B movement.
        diogenescynic 12y ago
        >My own experience is that H1-Bs were cheap consultant fodder, but that was from the late 90's. Hire a bunch of folks from India under H-1B, place them at companies, and pay them lower (non-consultant wages, poor benefits), then collect the difference the higher bill rate. That's still how the bulk of H-1Bs are used. The majority of them are granted to companies like Cognizant, Infosys, TCS, and several others. For example: >The two largest H-1B users are Indian-based, Infosys, with 6,298 visas, and Tata Consultancy Services (TCS), with 6,258. In third place is Cognizant, which is based in New Jersey, but runs large offshore centers. These firms have long dominated the top H-1B list spots. >Hira points out that over the last four years, Cognizant has received about 23,000 new H-1B workers with visas valid for up to 6 years, and has a number of workers on L-1s. (L-1 visas are used by multinational firms to transfer employees between countries.) "So, most, if not nearly all, of Cognizant's employees in the US are on some guest-worker visa," said Hira. From: http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9247241/Offshore_firms_took_50_of_H_1B_visas_in_2013 http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9247241/Offshore_firm...
- smtddr 12y ago
  >>I get that H1Bs are cheaper, False. Maybe in some situations, but not in general if you consider _all_ the costs.
- insuffi 12y ago
  Wrong. http://www.brookings.edu/research/papers/2013/05/10-h1b-visas-stem-rothwell-ruiz http://www.brookings.edu/research/papers/2013/05/10-h1b-visa... H1bs on average earn more than us-born workers.
- geekam 12y ago
  I am on H1B and definitely above the market price in terms of cost. Not all H1B's are equal. Some of us studied here in the US and then got a job here. There is another class of H1B workers which are brought on-site. However, most important difference is the H1 vs L1. I have seen more abuse of L1 (and the employees) by companies like Cognizant, Wipro, Infosys etc.
- syntern 12y ago
  I'm on H1B, and having interviewed with several companies in the Valley, I'm definitely not below market price. And for the wifes part: my wife has the same qualification as I have (two MSc in CS/IT), yet, she is not allowed to work. Not even with the proposed change in the law, as it requires to have ongoing greencard process, which itself may take years. So if you think that those shobby cheap visa workers just bring their freeriders with them, you are very far away from the reality.
whyenot 12y ago
"For the record" ? Do you have a citation from a more neutral ideally peer reviewed source? I don't trust The Partnership For a New American Economy. They are attempting to advance a particular political agenda on immigration and should not be considered a reliable or unbiased source for information. The Partnership for a New American Economy is a coalition of business leaders and mayors launched by Michael Bloomberg and Rupert Murdoch to influence public opinion and policymakers toward comprehensive immigration reform. "The partnership will enable Mayors and CEOs to demonstrate to policymakers the vital role that immigration plays in our economy by publishing studies, conducting polls, convening forums, and sponsoring public education campaigns." Among other goals, the partnership will pursue Congress and the White House to enact legislation which will create "a path to legal status for all undocumented immigrants now in the United States". The partnership will seek to influence "by publishing studies, conducting polls, convening forums, and sponsoring public education campaigns". (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partnership_for_a_New_American_Economy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partnership_for_a_New_American_...)
- fchollet 12y ago
  The fact that the organization that compiled the report has a political agenda doesn't mean that its data is somehow made-up. You can skip the recommendations, which are subjective, and only consider the numbers they report to form your own judgement. Everybody is pushing one agenda or another. Hopefully, in a humanist, rational society, you wouldn't get put on mute on the basis of having an opinion, especially if you have hard data to present.
  - diogenescynic 12y ago
    I worked for one of the big four global immigration firms and the prevailing wage is very easy to game. Check this out: http://flcdatacenter.com/CaseH1B.aspx http://flcdatacenter.com/CaseH1B.aspx Play around with it and see what you find. Now, say you're a company and you have multiple locations. You apply for the employee at the cheapest location, then pick a title that will get a lower prevailing wage, and say they are entry level when really they have 5 years of experience. So the prevailing wage determination is skewed. This is what I mean about telling a white lie. Anything that is available to companies that has a monetary reward for telling "white lies" to the government and depends on the companies "being honest" let alone understanding or agreeing with the overarching intent of the legislation -- is going to have the absolute shit abused out of it eventually. If a Software Engineer gets a higher prevailing wage than a Software Developer (or vice versa) according to the DOL. Which title do you think the employer will pick to apply under? The answer is obvious.
codystebbins 12y ago
Thanks for that. I think the US tech worker visa cap is just a nasty form of nationalistic protectionism. I am a US born citizen, but that does not mean that I shouldn't have to compete with someone born internationally. Morally that just seems wrong, and there is evidence to prove it could be economically harmful. People are concerned with inequality between nations, but policies like this prevent opportunity worldwide and hurt US workers and consumers for the sake of "protecting US workers".
- chrismcb 12y ago
  It IS a form of nationalistic protection. That is the whole point.

drivingmenuts 12y ago

Sounds to me like Businesses are spitefully avoiding creating jobs that they can't give to imported labor. I get that H1Bs are cheaper, and now, you can bring them and their wives over, but why not just go there and save the rest of us having listen to you whine about not being able to find people, when it's really about finding people at sub-market prices?

arjn 12y ago
Thats funny. I'm an H1B and am definitely not cheaper than my US counterparts. So don't generalize.
- protomyth 12y ago
  Your case shouldn't be generalized either. Strangely, I'm getting a lot of 404's when trying to find the actual stats on the Dept of Labor website.
  - enraged_camel 12y ago
    The parent is not generalizing. The first step of the application process, not just for H1B but for all employment-based visas (including green card), is to submit a ton of evidence to the Department of Labor that proves that you are being paid at least the median salary for your position in the region you are employed in. You can read more about that here (second paragraph): http://www.dol.gov/whd/immigration/h1b.htm http://www.dol.gov/whd/immigration/h1b.htm Do some employers game this system? Sure. But doing so is risky and repeat offenders can get blacklisted by the USCIS.
    - protomyth 12y ago
      My own experience is that H1-Bs were cheap consultant fodder, but that was from the late 90's. Hire a bunch of folks from India under H-1B, place them at companies, and pay them lower (non-consultant wages, poor benefits), then collect the difference the higher bill rate. I can name a couple of companies in the Twin Cities that pulled that stunt. The above is my generalization of my experience as the GP and GGP did. I saw that page, but I was looking for the actual wage stats and kept running into 404s (including one from that page).
      - enraged_camel 12y ago
        Like I said, the system can be gamed. But that's not an argument against hiring foreign workers. It's an argument for improving the system to make it more robust.
        protomyth 12y ago
        No, its not an argument against hiring foreign workers. It is an argument that the current system is broken. I would prefer they do a very ungovernment thing and scrap it then replace it (without a gap / carrying over the workers) with something rethought. I would particularly be happier with something based on automatic worker visas for graduates of US universities, applying the permit to the spouse also, and no specific company assignment. This sponsored stuff keeps everyones wages down by not providing H-1B movement.
      - diogenescynic 12y ago
        >My own experience is that H1-Bs were cheap consultant fodder, but that was from the late 90's. Hire a bunch of folks from India under H-1B, place them at companies, and pay them lower (non-consultant wages, poor benefits), then collect the difference the higher bill rate. That's still how the bulk of H-1Bs are used. The majority of them are granted to companies like Cognizant, Infosys, TCS, and several others. For example: >The two largest H-1B users are Indian-based, Infosys, with 6,298 visas, and Tata Consultancy Services (TCS), with 6,258. In third place is Cognizant, which is based in New Jersey, but runs large offshore centers. These firms have long dominated the top H-1B list spots. >Hira points out that over the last four years, Cognizant has received about 23,000 new H-1B workers with visas valid for up to 6 years, and has a number of workers on L-1s. (L-1 visas are used by multinational firms to transfer employees between countries.) "So, most, if not nearly all, of Cognizant's employees in the US are on some guest-worker visa," said Hira. From: http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9247241/Offshore_firms_took_50_of_H_1B_visas_in_2013 http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9247241/Offshore_firm...
smtddr 12y ago
>>I get that H1Bs are cheaper, False. Maybe in some situations, but not in general if you consider _all_ the costs.
insuffi 12y ago
Wrong. http://www.brookings.edu/research/papers/2013/05/10-h1b-visas-stem-rothwell-ruiz http://www.brookings.edu/research/papers/2013/05/10-h1b-visa... H1bs on average earn more than us-born workers.
geekam 12y ago
I am on H1B and definitely above the market price in terms of cost. Not all H1B's are equal. Some of us studied here in the US and then got a job here. There is another class of H1B workers which are brought on-site. However, most important difference is the H1 vs L1. I have seen more abuse of L1 (and the employees) by companies like Cognizant, Wipro, Infosys etc.
syntern 12y ago
I'm on H1B, and having interviewed with several companies in the Valley, I'm definitely not below market price. And for the wifes part: my wife has the same qualification as I have (two MSc in CS/IT), yet, she is not allowed to work. Not even with the proposed change in the law, as it requires to have ongoing greencard process, which itself may take years. So if you think that those shobby cheap visa workers just bring their freeriders with them, you are very far away from the reality.

whyenot 12y ago

"For the record" ? Do you have a citation from a more neutral ideally peer reviewed source? I don't trust The Partnership For a New American Economy. They are attempting to advance a particular political agenda on immigration and should not be considered a reliable or unbiased source for information. The Partnership for a New American Economy is a coalition of business leaders and mayors launched by Michael Bloomberg and Rupert Murdoch to influence public opinion and policymakers toward comprehensive immigration reform. "The partnership will enable Mayors and CEOs to demonstrate to policymakers the vital role that immigration plays in our economy by publishing studies, conducting polls, convening forums, and sponsoring public education campaigns." Among other goals, the partnership will pursue Congress and the White House to enact legislation which will create "a path to legal status for all undocumented immigrants now in the United States". The partnership will seek to influence "by publishing studies, conducting polls, convening forums, and sponsoring public education campaigns". (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partnership_for_a_New_American_Economy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partnership_for_a_New_American_...)

fchollet 12y ago
The fact that the organization that compiled the report has a political agenda doesn't mean that its data is somehow made-up. You can skip the recommendations, which are subjective, and only consider the numbers they report to form your own judgement. Everybody is pushing one agenda or another. Hopefully, in a humanist, rational society, you wouldn't get put on mute on the basis of having an opinion, especially if you have hard data to present.
- diogenescynic 12y ago
  I worked for one of the big four global immigration firms and the prevailing wage is very easy to game. Check this out: http://flcdatacenter.com/CaseH1B.aspx http://flcdatacenter.com/CaseH1B.aspx Play around with it and see what you find. Now, say you're a company and you have multiple locations. You apply for the employee at the cheapest location, then pick a title that will get a lower prevailing wage, and say they are entry level when really they have 5 years of experience. So the prevailing wage determination is skewed. This is what I mean about telling a white lie. Anything that is available to companies that has a monetary reward for telling "white lies" to the government and depends on the companies "being honest" let alone understanding or agreeing with the overarching intent of the legislation -- is going to have the absolute shit abused out of it eventually. If a Software Engineer gets a higher prevailing wage than a Software Developer (or vice versa) according to the DOL. Which title do you think the employer will pick to apply under? The answer is obvious.

codystebbins 12y ago

Thanks for that. I think the US tech worker visa cap is just a nasty form of nationalistic protectionism. I am a US born citizen, but that does not mean that I shouldn't have to compete with someone born internationally. Morally that just seems wrong, and there is evidence to prove it could be economically harmful. People are concerned with inequality between nations, but policies like this prevent opportunity worldwide and hurt US workers and consumers for the sake of "protecting US workers".

chrismcb 12y ago
It IS a form of nationalistic protection. That is the whole point.