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US immigration didn't allow us to build a team here, so we built one in Colombia

84 points by torrenegra 12y ago

acgourley 12y ago
Cache because it's down: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:jMSHaEiBEigJ:blog.bunnyinc.com/us-immigration-policy-sucks-for-startups/+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:jMSHaEi...
bitJericho 12y ago
Why did the author have to hire someone abroad to come in? We have so much talent sitting right here in the US. For example, I live in a small town with 3 high end customer service call centers that I know about (there's probably more I don't), and the rates they pay are well below national average because the cost of living is low here. In my area one could build a team of world-class customer service reps in a matter of weeks, pay them better than any place in the area, and have an experienced and high quality staff immediately available when more staff are needed. Of course I'm not knocking Santiago; having the ability and the qualities necessary to build a quality customer service team is extremely valuable no matter where you are.
- fennecfoxen 12y ago
  Because he already knew a guy, and he knew the guy was good, and he wanted to work with that guy. And "why did he have to hire someone from abroad" is a question that makes no more sense than "why should he have to hire someone local?"
  - jeffsco 12y ago
    The title says a team, suggesting that you can't build any team at all in US. But the evidence presented shows that he couldn't build a specific team: there exists a team he couldn't build in US.
    - fennecfoxen 12y ago
      This nitpicking is 100% accurate, but its relevance to the underlying immigration and employment policies involved is far more limited.
- icambron 12y ago
  > Why did the author have to hire someone abroad to come in? We have so much talent sitting right here in the US. Have to is the wrong way to look at it. He hired this person because he thought he would be the best at the job. Why should he have to prefer the talent in the US?
  - bitJericho 12y ago
    I guess I'm of the opinion that for some things, surely not everything, but for some things, there's more than one person in the world that can do the job. The freedom lover inside me gets your point though.
    - icambron 12y ago
      You may be right, and further he may have even been able to find far better people in the US, or maybe in, say, Ghana. But that's just us criticizing the degree to which he optimized his hiring, not a principled complaint about the citizenship of the person he ended up with. What I'm after is that I don't think he has some special moral or ethical responsibility to consider the candidate's nationality in making hiring decisions. (He may, in applying for certain visas, have such a legal responsibility, but then I think that's poor immigration policy on our part.) I feel for your town and I hope everyone there gets a good job; I just don't think "but we're American!" is the advantage that should get them there.
      - bitJericho 12y ago
        In my area, we have some of the lowest unemployment rates in the country. We're also some of the hardest working according to statistics taken all over the country. I can guarantee you a call center here is every bit as good as anywhere else in the world. I'd say if you're American and hiring Columbians to do a job we could do for the same price, you're acting not in the interests of your own country. Seems very strange to me not to support your own countrymen. One day the shoe may be on the other foot.
        12y ago
kzin6 12y ago
Looks like your site is down, perhaps you should reconsider outsourcing to save a buck.
- almost 12y ago
  Why do you think that people currently resident in the US are inherently better than those not currently living in the US?
  - pg_is_a_butt 12y ago
    gee, i don't know... maybe because the site run by those not currently living in the US is currently responding with "Error establishing a database connection"?? it's not 1995 anymore. if you can't scale, you're useless.
edfuh 12y ago
Looks like your ego didn't allow that. There's plenty of talent in the US.
raverbashing 12y ago
I wonder what will happen when "the money" realize the US (and SV/SF) is one of the worse places to assemble a team and is only there because of, guess what, the money. You can get work visas for lots of interesting places (Canada, Europe, etc) in a much shorter time and for a smaller cost So, yeah, I wouldn't bother with Silicon Valley
- mahyarm 12y ago
  More startups are in SV because of the larger amount of investment capital that is interested in software and the large amount of people to hire with very specific skill sets that you may be looking for. It's like thinking you need food first before you need oxygen, when it's the other way around.
  - tankenmate 12y ago
    Indeed this is why places like London which, in total capital terms, is much bigger than SV doesn't have as many internet focused start ups that reach massive valuations; there isn't as much internet focused capital floating around, and that in turn is because UK (and similarly European) companies don't make as many hi-tech acquisitions as US companies do. Investment is largely a supply driven business.
vitd 12y ago
I find this logic bizarre: "The US should also learn a lesson here. Because of the current, non-sensical immigration laws, Americans lost sixteen jobs." I don't see the connection. You wanted to hire someone on a visa - not a US citizen. You couldn't, so instead of looking for one person within the country (possibly somewhere cheaper than where your business is), you decided to hire him and 15 other non-citizens. I don't think that has anything to do with immigration law being messed up. That has to do with you making a decision to hire 16 people in another country. That's not a bad thing, but it's just not what you're claiming it is.
- untog 12y ago
  You wanted to hire someone on a visa - not a US citizen. US citizen or not, they'll be paying US tax. As it is, the country has lost out on potential tax income from those employees.
  - syntern 12y ago
    Not only that, the US lost their contribution to the local economy: they won't buy groceries, pay landlords or buy from the local car dealership. There is a huge missed opportunity there. I just don't get why the US wouldn't want qualified workers to get in the US. Singapore had this lesson learned well. Disclaimer: I'm on H1B myself.
    - teh_klev 12y ago
      People completely miss this about immigrant workers (I use the term in a positive way). Tax generation, local spending etc.
  - wvenable 12y ago
    Your point is correct. But hiring a US citizen would be better for the country because not only would there be the potential tax income but the savings from lower unemployment.
    - fredfoobar 12y ago
justizin 12y ago
This foolish reasoning leans pretty strongly on the logical fallacy that it is in the best interest of everyone for all new businesses to be founded in the US, when in fact, it is in the best interest of everyone for new businesses to be founded all over the world, creating jobs everywhere. This, in fact, has created the immigration supply and demand problem that the OP finds frustrating. Build your business in columbia. Sell things over the internet or whatever your crashed ass website does, and live a happy life. stop whining.
- taylorwc 12y ago
  Your argument is absolutely true in the long run, from a global perspective. But can you really argue that the country in which a business is founded wouldn't benefit more than a neighboring country?
  - justizin 12y ago
    yes, i can. let's take columbia for an example. the united states spends (obviously wastes) billions of dollars fighting cocaine production there. it may actually be a net win to fucking _send_ entrepreneurs there to give creative-minded young folks an alternative to spending their creativity evading capture.
    - taylorwc 12y ago
      Fair enough for an example that is fighting an illegal activity whose origins are outside of the country, but that seems like a fringe scenario, albeit a huge market. In the context of a business start, it is almost always more beneficial to a local/regional/national economy to have it be domestic.
ChuckMcM 12y ago
He makes an interesting claim, that immigration policy is doing more harm to American jobs than helping them. That said, having discovered that the team in Columbia is performing well, he's worked around the situation. Unfortunately, hiring is just one piece of many puzzles that have to be solved when building your business. In 3 to 5 years, or at his first big 'liquidity' event (acquisition or what ever), where he switches over from 'startup' to 'S&P 500 material', that is when the other externalities of these decisions will be visible, in the future looking back. At that time, and that will be a good data point going forward. The cautionary tale is to let a decision that is working for you now define its total value. Business decisions have very long tails that stretch into the future.
_random_ 12y ago
Does he describe how happy the team is living in Colombia AND receiving the USA-size salary?
- mikkom 12y ago
  In fact he does. How about reading the article?
  - _random_ 12y ago
    "Colombian salaries aren’t that much lower than US salaries". Seeeeriously doubt that they are paying $100k to devs (like in SF) in Colombia.
fchollet 12y ago
For the record, the demonstrated effect of US tech workers visa caps is less jobs for US-born workers too (as the economy is artificially slowed down as a whole). For instance it is estimated that during the recession over 200,000 jobs for US-born workers weren't created due to immigration policy restrictions: http://www.renewoureconomy.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/pnae_h1b.pdf http://www.renewoureconomy.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/pn...
- drivingmenuts 12y ago
  Sounds to me like Businesses are spitefully avoiding creating jobs that they can't give to imported labor. I get that H1Bs are cheaper, and now, you can bring them and their wives over, but why not just go there and save the rest of us having listen to you whine about not being able to find people, when it's really about finding people at sub-market prices?
  - arjn 12y ago
    Thats funny. I'm an H1B and am definitely not cheaper than my US counterparts. So don't generalize.
    - protomyth 12y ago
      Your case shouldn't be generalized either. Strangely, I'm getting a lot of 404's when trying to find the actual stats on the Dept of Labor website.
      - enraged_camel 12y ago
        The parent is not generalizing. The first step of the application process, not just for H1B but for all employment-based visas (including green card), is to submit a ton of evidence to the Department of Labor that proves that you are being paid at least the median salary for your position in the region you are employed in. You can read more about that here (second paragraph): http://www.dol.gov/whd/immigration/h1b.htm http://www.dol.gov/whd/immigration/h1b.htm Do some employers game this system? Sure. But doing so is risky and repeat offenders can get blacklisted by the USCIS.
pg_is_a_butt 12y ago
"Error establishing a database connection" seems about right for engineers that couldn't even fill out some visa paperwork.
greendata 12y ago
You should probably fix your website before you extol the virtues of outsourcing. That said, I think immigration should be more open to everyone. Big companies get H1-B workers bring wages down for engineers and programmers. Agriculture, construction and the restaurant industry also thrive on legal and illegal immigration and also bring the wages down in those industries. Doctors, lawyers, accounts, etc exist in a protected class of workers. We should open the gates for H1-B style doctors, lawyers, accountants, and managers.
- CodeMage 12y ago
  > Big companies get H1-B workers bring wages down for engineers and programmers. Could you back that up with some hard data? As far as I know, the whole point behind the H-1Bs is that the companies are not allowed to pay the immigrants less than you would pay the local talent.
  - djb_hackernews 12y ago
    Can't tell if this is sarcasm. http://programmersguild.org/archives/howtounderpay.htm http://programmersguild.org/archives/howtounderpay.htm
    - CodeMage 12y ago
      Ugh. No, it's not sarcasm. Look, your example of Bank of America's practices from 2001 is about as representative as my saying "Well, I'm currently on an H-1B1 and I'm not underpaid." It's an anecdote, not hard data.
    - insuffi 12y ago
      More links for everyone! http://www.brookings.edu/research/papers/2013/05/10-h1b-visas-stem-rothwell-ruiz http://www.brookings.edu/research/papers/2013/05/10-h1b-visa... Learn to use google, people.
joshlegs 12y ago
I haven't been able to read the article because it's not opening for me. But the headline sounds like a cheap shot on US immigration policies. But that's just idiocy. The US lets more immigrants in each year than any other country in the world. http://www.forbes.com/sites/modeledbehavior/2012/11/18/is-the-u-s-the-most-immigrant-friendly-country-in-the-world/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/modeledbehavior/2012/11/18/is-th... That article tries to make the argument that the US is still not doing well with immigration because the total population of immigrants compared to the general population ranks about 23d. But still, if you look at absolute numbers, the US still allows the most immigrants of any other country. Those who try to argue that our immigration system is broken simply have some alternate agenda or hold some sort of spite toward the US, if you ask me.
- funkaster 12y ago
  you clearly have no idea what you're talking about. Are you an immigrant? are you hiring immigrants? Probably not: if you were, you wouldn't be saying that the system is not broken. There are so many wrong things in the system. Just to name a couple: H1B allows you to work for A SPECIFIC employer. Spouses of H1B are NOT allowed to work (not even as a volunteer). And let's not talk about the implications of work & taxes & healthcare.
  - CodeMage 12y ago
    AFAIK, the H-4 holders can work as volunteers. Other than that, I agree 100% with everything you said.
    - funkaster 12y ago
      I think it depends on the org. My wife attended training in an organization to try to work as a volunteer, and for some reason (can't recall exact details right now), they were asking her for work permit in order to be a volunteer.
  - joshlegs 12y ago
    Firstly, you don't have to experience something first hand to know about it. Secondly, my girlfriend is an immigrant, and she has no problems finding work. Her parents were immigrants too for that matter, and even owned their own business here before moving back to England. So no, the system isn't broken.
McDiesel 12y ago
Why does it matter anymore? Even most undocumented foreigners pay taxes... as long as you pay taxes, why does it matter? Why does imperialism/nationalism still exist? Why does it matter where you came out of a vagina - why should that determine your opportunities (through limiting where you can work)? In the modern world, we'd be better off considering everyone citizens of the world and dropping the attitude we have about our borders.
- supergirl 12y ago
  that situation kind of exists in the EU
- geebee 12y ago
  I have a hard time with this. Consider the case of New Zealand. It has a population of about 4.5 million, and a land area considerably larger than California. Like the US, it is largely a country descended from immigrants. If New Zealand opened its borders, how quickly do you think it could grow its population? My guess is that within a couple of decades, they probably could add maybe 20 million? The US currently takes about 1.2 million immigrants a year, and demand is far higher than that. Do you feel that immigration on this scale would be a good thing for the 4.5 million citizens who currently reside in New Zealand? Or, even if it isn't, that they have a moral obligation to allow it?
wil421 12y ago
Why do people always complain so much about the US immigration? From what I have heard from friends abroad is that its just as hard if not harder in other places. For example in Costa Rica, just to be able to legally get a cellphone for yourself you must: be a citizen, a legal resident, or own/start a business. And we arent talking about a job here, just getting a cellphone.
- syntern 12y ago
  2.5 years ago: I needed to provide both my renting agreement and my full employment contract to get a T-Mobile $80/m subscription for two, in the mid of Silicon Valley. The US is definitely making it harder than is should be :) On the other hand, a close relative went to Singapore about the same time, and their immigration procedure was smooth, straighforward, everything in place, no barriers anywhere. Singapore wants to have qualified professionals, the US see them as numbers.
  - wil421 12y ago
    >2.5 years ago: I needed to provide both my renting agreement and my full employment contract to get a T-Mobile $80/m subscription for two, in the mid of Silicon Valley. The US is definitely making it harder than is should be :) Thats horrible! You could go buy a pre paid phone with out having all of the overhead from T-Mobile. The difference is that it was probably a T-Mobile policy, not a law or mandate by the government (like in Costa Rica). >the US see them as numbers. Exactly. I wish we were like Singapore but its much easier for a smaller Country. They see a person as an investvent in the future, the US sees you as a number and wants your taxes.
    - syntern 12y ago
      It has nothing to do with the size of the country. The US sees immigration as a privilege offered to a lower being [note], while Singapore sees (qualified) immigration as a way forward. [note]: This may have been true for a long time in the history. People were going to the US mainland because their conditions were bad enough, and anything would have been better elsewhere. I can understand that point of view, although e.g. my situation is on equal terms in the US vs my home country. However, I don't think it'll serve the US interest in the long run.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
kaeruct 12y ago
I am a developer that was born in a third-world country in Central America. There aren't many good opportunities here, but I was lucky enough to land a remote job with a US company, but before I was considering moving to the US and getting a job there. I guess next time I should consider a different country. Maybe Canada? Or somewhere in Europe?
zeidrich 12y ago
This person seems like they would have been the right person for this job. Apart from the people complaining about the restrictions of H-1B's their guy was willing to accede to those restrictions. These regulations are designed to let people like this guy come work in these situations. The issue was that too many requests were filed so an unfair system (lottery) was used to determine who would even be evaluated. Because of this high volume of requests, two things happen. First of all, you can't properly verify if the requests are legitimate (a specialized worker, unrivaled in this position) or illegitimate (a cheaper worker, willing to put up with under-market conditions for the benefit of leaving a worse foreign situation). Secondly, when the validity of a request isn't checked thoroughly, it's too easy to abuse and the number of illegitimate requests go up, making it take even more resources to get through requests. It sucks. The better solution is to make fair rules, and have the resources to apply them fairly. Unfortunately, hiring more government workers to be able to better process and make sure good foreign workers don't get left out of the country is not a politically safe move to make, while keeping them foreigners from stealing American jobs is more appealing to a public worried about unemployment. Trying to convince them that being able to hire a guy from out of the country means that more jobs will open up is not a straightforward thing to do.
- glenra 12y ago
  > The better solution is to make fair rules, and have the resources to apply them fairly. No, the better solution is to just open the borders and let everybody in who wants to work. Bigotry against foreigners is no less ugly than bigotry against any other arbitrary group. Letting in people who are willing to work cheaply isn't "illegitimate" or "abuse", it benefits everyone involved. Here's a good short video on "anti-foreign bias": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXMnAPGY1uE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXMnAPGY1uE

84 points by torrenegra 12y ago

Cache because it's down: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:jMSHaEiBEigJ:blog.bunnyinc.com/us-immigration-policy-sucks-for-startups/+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:jMSHaEi...

bitJericho 12y ago

Why did the author have to hire someone abroad to come in? We have so much talent sitting right here in the US. For example, I live in a small town with 3 high end customer service call centers that I know about (there's probably more I don't), and the rates they pay are well below national average because the cost of living is low here. In my area one could build a team of world-class customer service reps in a matter of weeks, pay them better than any place in the area, and have an experienced and high quality staff immediately available when more staff are needed. Of course I'm not knocking Santiago; having the ability and the qualities necessary to build a quality customer service team is extremely valuable no matter where you are.

fennecfoxen 12y ago
Because he already knew a guy, and he knew the guy was good, and he wanted to work with that guy. And "why did he have to hire someone from abroad" is a question that makes no more sense than "why should he have to hire someone local?"
- jeffsco 12y ago
  The title says a team, suggesting that you can't build any team at all in US. But the evidence presented shows that he couldn't build a specific team: there exists a team he couldn't build in US.
  - fennecfoxen 12y ago
    This nitpicking is 100% accurate, but its relevance to the underlying immigration and employment policies involved is far more limited.
icambron 12y ago
> Why did the author have to hire someone abroad to come in? We have so much talent sitting right here in the US. Have to is the wrong way to look at it. He hired this person because he thought he would be the best at the job. Why should he have to prefer the talent in the US?
- bitJericho 12y ago
  I guess I'm of the opinion that for some things, surely not everything, but for some things, there's more than one person in the world that can do the job. The freedom lover inside me gets your point though.
  - icambron 12y ago
    You may be right, and further he may have even been able to find far better people in the US, or maybe in, say, Ghana. But that's just us criticizing the degree to which he optimized his hiring, not a principled complaint about the citizenship of the person he ended up with. What I'm after is that I don't think he has some special moral or ethical responsibility to consider the candidate's nationality in making hiring decisions. (He may, in applying for certain visas, have such a legal responsibility, but then I think that's poor immigration policy on our part.) I feel for your town and I hope everyone there gets a good job; I just don't think "but we're American!" is the advantage that should get them there.
    - bitJericho 12y ago
      In my area, we have some of the lowest unemployment rates in the country. We're also some of the hardest working according to statistics taken all over the country. I can guarantee you a call center here is every bit as good as anywhere else in the world. I'd say if you're American and hiring Columbians to do a job we could do for the same price, you're acting not in the interests of your own country. Seems very strange to me not to support your own countrymen. One day the shoe may be on the other foot.
      - 12y ago

kzin6 12y ago

Looks like your site is down, perhaps you should reconsider outsourcing to save a buck.

almost 12y ago
Why do you think that people currently resident in the US are inherently better than those not currently living in the US?
- pg_is_a_butt 12y ago
  gee, i don't know... maybe because the site run by those not currently living in the US is currently responding with "Error establishing a database connection"?? it's not 1995 anymore. if you can't scale, you're useless.

edfuh 12y ago

Looks like your ego didn't allow that. There's plenty of talent in the US.

raverbashing 12y ago

I wonder what will happen when "the money" realize the US (and SV/SF) is one of the worse places to assemble a team and is only there because of, guess what, the money. You can get work visas for lots of interesting places (Canada, Europe, etc) in a much shorter time and for a smaller cost So, yeah, I wouldn't bother with Silicon Valley

mahyarm 12y ago
More startups are in SV because of the larger amount of investment capital that is interested in software and the large amount of people to hire with very specific skill sets that you may be looking for. It's like thinking you need food first before you need oxygen, when it's the other way around.
- tankenmate 12y ago
  Indeed this is why places like London which, in total capital terms, is much bigger than SV doesn't have as many internet focused start ups that reach massive valuations; there isn't as much internet focused capital floating around, and that in turn is because UK (and similarly European) companies don't make as many hi-tech acquisitions as US companies do. Investment is largely a supply driven business.

vitd 12y ago

I find this logic bizarre: "The US should also learn a lesson here. Because of the current, non-sensical immigration laws, Americans lost sixteen jobs." I don't see the connection. You wanted to hire someone on a visa - not a US citizen. You couldn't, so instead of looking for one person within the country (possibly somewhere cheaper than where your business is), you decided to hire him and 15 other non-citizens. I don't think that has anything to do with immigration law being messed up. That has to do with you making a decision to hire 16 people in another country. That's not a bad thing, but it's just not what you're claiming it is.

untog 12y ago
You wanted to hire someone on a visa - not a US citizen. US citizen or not, they'll be paying US tax. As it is, the country has lost out on potential tax income from those employees.
- syntern 12y ago
  Not only that, the US lost their contribution to the local economy: they won't buy groceries, pay landlords or buy from the local car dealership. There is a huge missed opportunity there. I just don't get why the US wouldn't want qualified workers to get in the US. Singapore had this lesson learned well. Disclaimer: I'm on H1B myself.
  - teh_klev 12y ago
    People completely miss this about immigrant workers (I use the term in a positive way). Tax generation, local spending etc.
- wvenable 12y ago
  Your point is correct. But hiring a US citizen would be better for the country because not only would there be the potential tax income but the savings from lower unemployment.
  - fredfoobar 12y ago

justizin 12y ago

This foolish reasoning leans pretty strongly on the logical fallacy that it is in the best interest of everyone for all new businesses to be founded in the US, when in fact, it is in the best interest of everyone for new businesses to be founded all over the world, creating jobs everywhere. This, in fact, has created the immigration supply and demand problem that the OP finds frustrating. Build your business in columbia. Sell things over the internet or whatever your crashed ass website does, and live a happy life. stop whining.

taylorwc 12y ago
Your argument is absolutely true in the long run, from a global perspective. But can you really argue that the country in which a business is founded wouldn't benefit more than a neighboring country?
- justizin 12y ago
  yes, i can. let's take columbia for an example. the united states spends (obviously wastes) billions of dollars fighting cocaine production there. it may actually be a net win to fucking _send_ entrepreneurs there to give creative-minded young folks an alternative to spending their creativity evading capture.
  - taylorwc 12y ago
    Fair enough for an example that is fighting an illegal activity whose origins are outside of the country, but that seems like a fringe scenario, albeit a huge market. In the context of a business start, it is almost always more beneficial to a local/regional/national economy to have it be domestic.

ChuckMcM 12y ago

He makes an interesting claim, that immigration policy is doing more harm to American jobs than helping them. That said, having discovered that the team in Columbia is performing well, he's worked around the situation. Unfortunately, hiring is just one piece of many puzzles that have to be solved when building your business. In 3 to 5 years, or at his first big 'liquidity' event (acquisition or what ever), where he switches over from 'startup' to 'S&P 500 material', that is when the other externalities of these decisions will be visible, in the future looking back. At that time, and that will be a good data point going forward. The cautionary tale is to let a decision that is working for you now define its total value. Business decisions have very long tails that stretch into the future.

_random_ 12y ago

Does he describe how happy the team is living in Colombia AND receiving the USA-size salary?

mikkom 12y ago
In fact he does. How about reading the article?
- _random_ 12y ago
  "Colombian salaries aren’t that much lower than US salaries". Seeeeriously doubt that they are paying $100k to devs (like in SF) in Colombia.

fchollet 12y ago

For the record, the demonstrated effect of US tech workers visa caps is less jobs for US-born workers too (as the economy is artificially slowed down as a whole). For instance it is estimated that during the recession over 200,000 jobs for US-born workers weren't created due to immigration policy restrictions: http://www.renewoureconomy.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/pnae_h1b.pdf http://www.renewoureconomy.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/pn...

drivingmenuts 12y ago
Sounds to me like Businesses are spitefully avoiding creating jobs that they can't give to imported labor. I get that H1Bs are cheaper, and now, you can bring them and their wives over, but why not just go there and save the rest of us having listen to you whine about not being able to find people, when it's really about finding people at sub-market prices?
- arjn 12y ago
  Thats funny. I'm an H1B and am definitely not cheaper than my US counterparts. So don't generalize.
  - protomyth 12y ago
    Your case shouldn't be generalized either. Strangely, I'm getting a lot of 404's when trying to find the actual stats on the Dept of Labor website.
    - enraged_camel 12y ago
      The parent is not generalizing. The first step of the application process, not just for H1B but for all employment-based visas (including green card), is to submit a ton of evidence to the Department of Labor that proves that you are being paid at least the median salary for your position in the region you are employed in. You can read more about that here (second paragraph): http://www.dol.gov/whd/immigration/h1b.htm http://www.dol.gov/whd/immigration/h1b.htm Do some employers game this system? Sure. But doing so is risky and repeat offenders can get blacklisted by the USCIS.

pg_is_a_butt 12y ago

"Error establishing a database connection" seems about right for engineers that couldn't even fill out some visa paperwork.

greendata 12y ago

You should probably fix your website before you extol the virtues of outsourcing. That said, I think immigration should be more open to everyone. Big companies get H1-B workers bring wages down for engineers and programmers. Agriculture, construction and the restaurant industry also thrive on legal and illegal immigration and also bring the wages down in those industries. Doctors, lawyers, accounts, etc exist in a protected class of workers. We should open the gates for H1-B style doctors, lawyers, accountants, and managers.

CodeMage 12y ago
> Big companies get H1-B workers bring wages down for engineers and programmers. Could you back that up with some hard data? As far as I know, the whole point behind the H-1Bs is that the companies are not allowed to pay the immigrants less than you would pay the local talent.
- djb_hackernews 12y ago
  Can't tell if this is sarcasm. http://programmersguild.org/archives/howtounderpay.htm http://programmersguild.org/archives/howtounderpay.htm
  - CodeMage 12y ago
    Ugh. No, it's not sarcasm. Look, your example of Bank of America's practices from 2001 is about as representative as my saying "Well, I'm currently on an H-1B1 and I'm not underpaid." It's an anecdote, not hard data.
  - insuffi 12y ago
    More links for everyone! http://www.brookings.edu/research/papers/2013/05/10-h1b-visas-stem-rothwell-ruiz http://www.brookings.edu/research/papers/2013/05/10-h1b-visa... Learn to use google, people.

joshlegs 12y ago

I haven't been able to read the article because it's not opening for me. But the headline sounds like a cheap shot on US immigration policies. But that's just idiocy. The US lets more immigrants in each year than any other country in the world. http://www.forbes.com/sites/modeledbehavior/2012/11/18/is-the-u-s-the-most-immigrant-friendly-country-in-the-world/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/modeledbehavior/2012/11/18/is-th... That article tries to make the argument that the US is still not doing well with immigration because the total population of immigrants compared to the general population ranks about 23d. But still, if you look at absolute numbers, the US still allows the most immigrants of any other country. Those who try to argue that our immigration system is broken simply have some alternate agenda or hold some sort of spite toward the US, if you ask me.

funkaster 12y ago
you clearly have no idea what you're talking about. Are you an immigrant? are you hiring immigrants? Probably not: if you were, you wouldn't be saying that the system is not broken. There are so many wrong things in the system. Just to name a couple: H1B allows you to work for A SPECIFIC employer. Spouses of H1B are NOT allowed to work (not even as a volunteer). And let's not talk about the implications of work & taxes & healthcare.
- CodeMage 12y ago
  AFAIK, the H-4 holders can work as volunteers. Other than that, I agree 100% with everything you said.
  - funkaster 12y ago
    I think it depends on the org. My wife attended training in an organization to try to work as a volunteer, and for some reason (can't recall exact details right now), they were asking her for work permit in order to be a volunteer.
- joshlegs 12y ago
  Firstly, you don't have to experience something first hand to know about it. Secondly, my girlfriend is an immigrant, and she has no problems finding work. Her parents were immigrants too for that matter, and even owned their own business here before moving back to England. So no, the system isn't broken.

McDiesel 12y ago

Why does it matter anymore? Even most undocumented foreigners pay taxes... as long as you pay taxes, why does it matter? Why does imperialism/nationalism still exist? Why does it matter where you came out of a vagina - why should that determine your opportunities (through limiting where you can work)? In the modern world, we'd be better off considering everyone citizens of the world and dropping the attitude we have about our borders.

supergirl 12y ago
that situation kind of exists in the EU
geebee 12y ago
I have a hard time with this. Consider the case of New Zealand. It has a population of about 4.5 million, and a land area considerably larger than California. Like the US, it is largely a country descended from immigrants. If New Zealand opened its borders, how quickly do you think it could grow its population? My guess is that within a couple of decades, they probably could add maybe 20 million? The US currently takes about 1.2 million immigrants a year, and demand is far higher than that. Do you feel that immigration on this scale would be a good thing for the 4.5 million citizens who currently reside in New Zealand? Or, even if it isn't, that they have a moral obligation to allow it?

wil421 12y ago

Why do people always complain so much about the US immigration? From what I have heard from friends abroad is that its just as hard if not harder in other places. For example in Costa Rica, just to be able to legally get a cellphone for yourself you must: be a citizen, a legal resident, or own/start a business. And we arent talking about a job here, just getting a cellphone.

syntern 12y ago
2.5 years ago: I needed to provide both my renting agreement and my full employment contract to get a T-Mobile $80/m subscription for two, in the mid of Silicon Valley. The US is definitely making it harder than is should be :) On the other hand, a close relative went to Singapore about the same time, and their immigration procedure was smooth, straighforward, everything in place, no barriers anywhere. Singapore wants to have qualified professionals, the US see them as numbers.
- wil421 12y ago
  >2.5 years ago: I needed to provide both my renting agreement and my full employment contract to get a T-Mobile $80/m subscription for two, in the mid of Silicon Valley. The US is definitely making it harder than is should be :) Thats horrible! You could go buy a pre paid phone with out having all of the overhead from T-Mobile. The difference is that it was probably a T-Mobile policy, not a law or mandate by the government (like in Costa Rica). >the US see them as numbers. Exactly. I wish we were like Singapore but its much easier for a smaller Country. They see a person as an investvent in the future, the US sees you as a number and wants your taxes.
  - syntern 12y ago
    It has nothing to do with the size of the country. The US sees immigration as a privilege offered to a lower being [note], while Singapore sees (qualified) immigration as a way forward. [note]: This may have been true for a long time in the history. People were going to the US mainland because their conditions were bad enough, and anything would have been better elsewhere. I can understand that point of view, although e.g. my situation is on equal terms in the US vs my home country. However, I don't think it'll serve the US interest in the long run.

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kaeruct 12y ago

I am a developer that was born in a third-world country in Central America. There aren't many good opportunities here, but I was lucky enough to land a remote job with a US company, but before I was considering moving to the US and getting a job there. I guess next time I should consider a different country. Maybe Canada? Or somewhere in Europe?

zeidrich 12y ago

This person seems like they would have been the right person for this job. Apart from the people complaining about the restrictions of H-1B's their guy was willing to accede to those restrictions. These regulations are designed to let people like this guy come work in these situations. The issue was that too many requests were filed so an unfair system (lottery) was used to determine who would even be evaluated. Because of this high volume of requests, two things happen. First of all, you can't properly verify if the requests are legitimate (a specialized worker, unrivaled in this position) or illegitimate (a cheaper worker, willing to put up with under-market conditions for the benefit of leaving a worse foreign situation). Secondly, when the validity of a request isn't checked thoroughly, it's too easy to abuse and the number of illegitimate requests go up, making it take even more resources to get through requests. It sucks. The better solution is to make fair rules, and have the resources to apply them fairly. Unfortunately, hiring more government workers to be able to better process and make sure good foreign workers don't get left out of the country is not a politically safe move to make, while keeping them foreigners from stealing American jobs is more appealing to a public worried about unemployment. Trying to convince them that being able to hire a guy from out of the country means that more jobs will open up is not a straightforward thing to do.

glenra 12y ago
> The better solution is to make fair rules, and have the resources to apply them fairly. No, the better solution is to just open the borders and let everybody in who wants to work. Bigotry against foreigners is no less ugly than bigotry against any other arbitrary group. Letting in people who are willing to work cheaply isn't "illegitimate" or "abuse", it benefits everyone involved. Here's a good short video on "anti-foreign bias": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXMnAPGY1uE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXMnAPGY1uE