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If only we had Yet Another Dynamic Scripting Language (YADSL) that we could use to write web frameworks! Because there are only like 17 with full ecosystems an

If only we had Yet Another Dynamic Scripting Language (YADSL) that we could use to write web frameworks! Because there are only like 17 with full ecosystems and tools and libraries to talk to every existing database engine, yadayadayada. What we really need is another one so that we can spend our time poking at a new language instead of building useful things! Swift would be an especially good one, since it doesn't have anything new to offer (unlike Clojure or Scala or Rust or Go) and it has great interoperability with Objective C (which Apple abandoned for server side programming in like 2005) AND it doesn't run on anything other than OSX, which is awesome because Apple discontinued Xserve over 10 years ago (EDIT: Xserve discontinued a few years ago), and there are basically no hosting providers of any kind. We could spend literally tens of person years building up all that stuff instead of using the massive infrastructure already in place!

matthewmacleod 12y ago
What parts of Swift (a compiled, statically-typed language) make it YADSL?
- justin_vanw 12y ago
  "Compiled" is a pretty tricky thing, even Python and Ruby are "compiled". How about "Yet Another Syntax Without Any Interesting Semantics, With a Bonus of Being Proprietary" (YASWAISWBBP)
  - reubenmorais 12y ago
    >Without Any Interesting Semantics You don't use a drill because of how interesting it is that the shape of the drill bit combined with its rotation lift material out of the hole. You do it because it works, and is efficient. A programming language is a tool, not a toy.
    - justin_vanw 12y ago
      That's literally my entire point, stated in the form of disagreement. Why would you use a new tool that has no support and no clear advantage or distinguishing features, when there are a dozen with fully fleshed out ecosystems?
  - chc 12y ago
    I don't think there is any other mainstreamish language with enforced option types. Even Scala and F# just cave and allow nulls everywhere. Swift's constellation of features is very interesting IMO.
    - justin_vanw 12y ago
      1. Swift is not a mainstream language. Maybe you trust in Apple's ability to turn it into one. 2. Haskell and Common Lisp, but maybe those aren't "mainstreamish".
      - chc 12y ago
        It's the primary language for a huge platform. I don't know how much more mainstream you can get. This seems a bit like saying, "I'm not sure the newly elected US president is a significant figure in US politics." And no, neither Haskell nor Common Lisp are anywhere in the same city as the mainstream. For an idea of what I mean, pick a reasonably significant "target domain" for the language and consider how many major applications are written in that language. There is no platform on which Haskell or Common Lisp get used very much compared to other languages. Objective-C is clearly a dominant presence on iOS, C# rules Windows, Java has a lock on the enterprise, C and C++ are the bosses of systems programming, Haskell is…an interesting language whose motto is "avoid success at all costs." And also, I don't think Common Lisp has enforced option types. (car '(1)) is 1 while (cadr '(1)) is NIL. Am I mistaken?
    - oscargrouch 12y ago
      Rust
      - chc 12y ago
        Is the idea of "mainstream" really that vague to people? Rust is the opposite of what I meant by that.
        oscargrouch 12y ago
        while Swift announcement may have caused a lot of hype, im pretty sure its not mainstream by now.. So Rust just fits into your concept of "mainstream", thats why i've cited it :)
Detrus 12y ago
But it handles memory more like Rust than Go or something. And it's not weird like Clojure and Scala. And it doesn't have their performance quirks. And you can use the same language for iOS front ends as you do for back ends! Just like NodeJS for web apps! Don't worry about tens of person years, there are more than enough developers who could use the attention.
- frowaway001 12y ago
  > But it handles memory more like Rust No.
blktiger 12y ago
First off, Swift isn't actually dynamic. It's strongly-typed (the type system itself is stronger than Java/C++) with the ability to use Protocols to do more generic things when needed. Additionally, since the compiler is built with LLVM if Apple were to open up the language there is a strong probability that it could run on any platform LLVM supports. The main piece holding it back would be that it seems to be pretty strongly tied to CoreFoundation. Apple has a .ddl for CoreFoundation on windows though so that may not hold Swift back from being cross-platform.

matthewmacleod 12y ago

What parts of Swift (a compiled, statically-typed language) make it YADSL?

justin_vanw 12y ago
"Compiled" is a pretty tricky thing, even Python and Ruby are "compiled". How about "Yet Another Syntax Without Any Interesting Semantics, With a Bonus of Being Proprietary" (YASWAISWBBP)
- reubenmorais 12y ago
  >Without Any Interesting Semantics You don't use a drill because of how interesting it is that the shape of the drill bit combined with its rotation lift material out of the hole. You do it because it works, and is efficient. A programming language is a tool, not a toy.
  - justin_vanw 12y ago
    That's literally my entire point, stated in the form of disagreement. Why would you use a new tool that has no support and no clear advantage or distinguishing features, when there are a dozen with fully fleshed out ecosystems?
- chc 12y ago
  I don't think there is any other mainstreamish language with enforced option types. Even Scala and F# just cave and allow nulls everywhere. Swift's constellation of features is very interesting IMO.
  - justin_vanw 12y ago
    1. Swift is not a mainstream language. Maybe you trust in Apple's ability to turn it into one. 2. Haskell and Common Lisp, but maybe those aren't "mainstreamish".
    - chc 12y ago
      It's the primary language for a huge platform. I don't know how much more mainstream you can get. This seems a bit like saying, "I'm not sure the newly elected US president is a significant figure in US politics." And no, neither Haskell nor Common Lisp are anywhere in the same city as the mainstream. For an idea of what I mean, pick a reasonably significant "target domain" for the language and consider how many major applications are written in that language. There is no platform on which Haskell or Common Lisp get used very much compared to other languages. Objective-C is clearly a dominant presence on iOS, C# rules Windows, Java has a lock on the enterprise, C and C++ are the bosses of systems programming, Haskell is…an interesting language whose motto is "avoid success at all costs." And also, I don't think Common Lisp has enforced option types. (car '(1)) is 1 while (cadr '(1)) is NIL. Am I mistaken?
  - oscargrouch 12y ago
    Rust
    - chc 12y ago
      Is the idea of "mainstream" really that vague to people? Rust is the opposite of what I meant by that.
      - oscargrouch 12y ago
        while Swift announcement may have caused a lot of hype, im pretty sure its not mainstream by now.. So Rust just fits into your concept of "mainstream", thats why i've cited it :)

Detrus 12y ago

But it handles memory more like Rust than Go or something. And it's not weird like Clojure and Scala. And it doesn't have their performance quirks. And you can use the same language for iOS front ends as you do for back ends! Just like NodeJS for web apps! Don't worry about tens of person years, there are more than enough developers who could use the attention.

frowaway001 12y ago
> But it handles memory more like Rust No.

blktiger 12y ago

First off, Swift isn't actually dynamic. It's strongly-typed (the type system itself is stronger than Java/C++) with the ability to use Protocols to do more generic things when needed. Additionally, since the compiler is built with LLVM if Apple were to open up the language there is a strong probability that it could run on any platform LLVM supports. The main piece holding it back would be that it seems to be pretty strongly tied to CoreFoundation. Apple has a .ddl for CoreFoundation on windows though so that may not hold Swift back from being cross-platform.