4 ms·

re: the Holocaust, what part of it is that you're not sure of? - That 9+ million people were killed? - That this was done in a methodical and organized fashio

by JimmyL 17y ago

re: the Holocaust, what part of it is that you're not sure of? - That 9+ million people were killed? - That this was done in a methodical and organized fashion? - That the vast majority of the people killed were Jews, gays, gypsies, and other smaller/marginalized social groups? I'm all for an organized and civilized debate, but if you want to do that without being called a nutjob, you need to clarify exactly what parts you are questioning, and provide a somewhat sound basis for doing that - i.e. if you have a problem with my first point, then explain why people think that, and why you disagree? As Truzzi said, "extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof." Questioning the Holocaust is a pretty extraordinary claim, so bring it...

Tichy 17y ago
" That several million people were killed? That this was done in a methodical and organized fashion?" I think the actual numbers are what the debate is usually about. Also if the killing was planned from the beginning (I think some say that it was only later that it was decided on the killing - they knew they wanted to get rid of the jews, but no clear idea how). Many might have died from bad conditions (which is also killing them, but different from actively shooting or gassing them). Edit: I don't really question the HC, I just say I don't know the details. As for the numbers, the criticisms I have heard are that there are no ways to validate them. There are no documents about missing persons that could be counted, and often it is unclear if they might just have fled the country. There are no mass graves, either. The criticism is that required archives are not open to the public (like from the red cross). I don't know if that is true or not.
- sethg 17y ago
  Also if the killing was planned from the beginning Excerpt from a 1922 magazine interview with Hitler: "Once I really am in power, my first and foremost task will be the annihilation of the Jews. As soon as I have the power to do so, I will have gallows built in rows - at the Marienplatz in Munich, for example - as many as traffic allows. Then the Jews will be hanged indiscriminately, and they will remain hanging until they stink; they will hang there as long as the principles of hygiene permit. As soon as they have been untied, the next batch will be strung up, and so on down the line, until the last Jew in Munich has been exterminated. Other cities will follow suit, precisely in this fashion, until all Germany has been completely cleansed of Jews." Excerpt from Hitler's speech to the Reichstag on January 30, 1939, seven months before Germany invaded Poland: "Today I want to be a prophet once more: if international finance Jewry inside and outside of Europe should succeed once more in plunging nations into another world war, the consequence will not be the Bolshevation of the earth and thereby the victory of Jewry, but the annihilation of the Jewish race in Europe [die Vernichtung der jüdischen Rasse in Europa]". (quoted in http://www.nizkor.org/qar-complete.cgi http://www.nizkor.org/qar-complete.cgi)
  - Tichy 17y ago
    No doubt that Hitler wanted to kill them, true.
- anigbrowl 17y ago
  Searching for 'holocaust mass graves' turns up several results on the front page just of fairly recent discoveries, with locations etc. that you could try to verify. If archives are not open to the public then perhaps you should press for them to be put online for the sake of historical interest, or get in touch with a historian who could help to make this case. It sounds like you're sincere and just trying to find high quality of evidence, but statements to the effect that 'there are no mass graves' seem to contradict established fact.
  - Tichy 17y ago
    Apparently the mass graves were indeed a false quote I found, sorry about that. I was at times drawn into the discussion and started to look for some facts (especially on all the anti-revisionist web sites I was pointed to). But ultimately I ended up deciding that the subject is not important enough for me to invest the time. It would have to be a full time job, and I am not a historian. I am sorry I mentioned the issue.
- sethg 17y ago
  As for the numbers, the criticisms I have heard are that there are no ways to validate them. There are demographic statistics on the number of Jews in Europe before and after World War II. These numbers have a margin of error, but if three million Jews had escaped from Eastern Europe to the USSR instead of being killed, it's hard to imagine how this fact could be covered up.
  - Tichy 17y ago
    I don't know enough about it to comment. It's just the kind of criticism I have heard in discussions. Sorry for bringing the subject up at all.

by JimmyL 17y ago

Tichy 17y ago

" That several million people were killed? That this was done in a methodical and organized fashion?" I think the actual numbers are what the debate is usually about. Also if the killing was planned from the beginning (I think some say that it was only later that it was decided on the killing - they knew they wanted to get rid of the jews, but no clear idea how). Many might have died from bad conditions (which is also killing them, but different from actively shooting or gassing them). Edit: I don't really question the HC, I just say I don't know the details. As for the numbers, the criticisms I have heard are that there are no ways to validate them. There are no documents about missing persons that could be counted, and often it is unclear if they might just have fled the country. There are no mass graves, either. The criticism is that required archives are not open to the public (like from the red cross). I don't know if that is true or not.

sethg 17y ago
Also if the killing was planned from the beginning Excerpt from a 1922 magazine interview with Hitler: "Once I really am in power, my first and foremost task will be the annihilation of the Jews. As soon as I have the power to do so, I will have gallows built in rows - at the Marienplatz in Munich, for example - as many as traffic allows. Then the Jews will be hanged indiscriminately, and they will remain hanging until they stink; they will hang there as long as the principles of hygiene permit. As soon as they have been untied, the next batch will be strung up, and so on down the line, until the last Jew in Munich has been exterminated. Other cities will follow suit, precisely in this fashion, until all Germany has been completely cleansed of Jews." Excerpt from Hitler's speech to the Reichstag on January 30, 1939, seven months before Germany invaded Poland: "Today I want to be a prophet once more: if international finance Jewry inside and outside of Europe should succeed once more in plunging nations into another world war, the consequence will not be the Bolshevation of the earth and thereby the victory of Jewry, but the annihilation of the Jewish race in Europe [die Vernichtung der jüdischen Rasse in Europa]". (quoted in http://www.nizkor.org/qar-complete.cgi http://www.nizkor.org/qar-complete.cgi)
- Tichy 17y ago
  No doubt that Hitler wanted to kill them, true.
anigbrowl 17y ago
Searching for 'holocaust mass graves' turns up several results on the front page just of fairly recent discoveries, with locations etc. that you could try to verify. If archives are not open to the public then perhaps you should press for them to be put online for the sake of historical interest, or get in touch with a historian who could help to make this case. It sounds like you're sincere and just trying to find high quality of evidence, but statements to the effect that 'there are no mass graves' seem to contradict established fact.
- Tichy 17y ago
  Apparently the mass graves were indeed a false quote I found, sorry about that. I was at times drawn into the discussion and started to look for some facts (especially on all the anti-revisionist web sites I was pointed to). But ultimately I ended up deciding that the subject is not important enough for me to invest the time. It would have to be a full time job, and I am not a historian. I am sorry I mentioned the issue.
sethg 17y ago
As for the numbers, the criticisms I have heard are that there are no ways to validate them. There are demographic statistics on the number of Jews in Europe before and after World War II. These numbers have a margin of error, but if three million Jews had escaped from Eastern Europe to the USSR instead of being killed, it's hard to imagine how this fact could be covered up.
- Tichy 17y ago
  I don't know enough about it to comment. It's just the kind of criticism I have heard in discussions. Sorry for bringing the subject up at all.