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On failing our values, our team, and our industry
- MartinCron 12y agoThis is, in fact, a very good response to this. Mostly based on what it is not: It's not a "sorry if you were offended" non-apology. It's throwing a particular person under the bus or offering his head on a stake. It is thoughtful and direct and raises my opinion of Atlassian. Well done, guys.
- stormbrew 12y agoYep, agreed that this is how this kind of thing should be handled, so long as it's also actually followed up on as described.
- blatherard 12y agoReferenced story: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7847351 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7847351
- GuiA 12y agoTypical pattern: a developer associated with a company says something racist/sexist/homophobic/etc., there is public outrage on the internet, the company issues a nicely formatted public apology that includes all the typical tropes: "it's not OK", "we failed our values", "we let everyone down" etc. (someone should make a website to generate those) - all while not really saying anything meaningful. The developer is an Atlassian employee. He gave the talk at an Atlassian organized conference. I would assume his talk must have been approved internally in some way or form (unless any employee was able to give any talk they wanted without any form of supervision, in which case there's a deeper problem here). So here's my question: why wasn't this terrible "joke" cut out from the slides months ago? Why, when the guy was preparing his talk, presumably rehearsing it in front of his coworkers, sending the PDF of the slide to organizers of the event, etc., did no one speak up and say "Dude, that slide is sexist and doesn't add anything of value to your talk - just remove it"? The fact that this didn't happen leads me to believe that the internal culture at Atlassian must be quite terrible, and very much the opposite of an environment where acceptance and diversity flourish. (EDIT: received 3 downvotes on this comment less than one minute after it was posted. Looks like the Atlassian PR department is keeping watch. Hi guys! :) )
- gbog 12y agoDowned you, and I'm not Atlassian employee. Just because you seem to believe each word in each talk of each employee in each company should be scrutinized by thought police and I don't agree.
- GuiA 12y agoI don't believe that "each word in each talk of each employee in each company should be scrutinized". I do believe that if you're giving a talk on behalf of your company at a major event organized by your company, and your talk contains an extremely inappropriate slide, then either a) your company is terrible at organizing events (and it's a miracle that nothing worse happened) or b) no one in your company cared about that inappropriate slide, in which case your company has terrible culture. (here gbog is using the 3rd stratagem from Schopenhauer's "Art of Being Right": "Generalize Your Opponent's Specific Statements")
- yohanatan 12y agoor c) the presenter slipped it in at the last minute on his own accord.
- MartinCron 12y agoAnd was never told ahead of time that risky edgy gender humor is a stupid idea in a professional context. Kind of shameful that it even has to be said, but I guess it does.
- gbog 12y agoQuoting you: > (unless any employee was able to give any talk they wanted without any form of supervision, in which case there's a deeper problem here) I think any employee being able to give any talk they wanted without helicopter parenting should be the norm. I think one employee saying once one stupid thing should not be the end of the world. I think everyone should be allowed to say stupid things. We do anyway, right?
- 12y ago
- newobj 12y ago"I know the engineer responsible well. I hired him. I know the slide does not reflect his values any more than it reflects Atlassian’s" If the slide reflects his values _less_ than it does Atlassian's, that's pretty bad, no?
- javert 12y agoWell, technically, "any more than" means it reflects his values <= Atlassians, and <= 0 is 0. But I got a chuckle from what you said.
- spinlock 12y agoMaven is my Feminist... * Looks Good * Complains a Lot * Demands My Attention * Interrupts Me When I'm Working * Doesn't Play Well With My Other Friends
- shravan 12y agoContext: http://www.npr.org/blogs/alltechconsidered/2014/06/04/318882549/women-complain-a-lot-interrupt-developer-says-at-conference http://www.npr.org/blogs/alltechconsidered/2014/06/04/318882...
- germs12 12y agothanks! +1
- germs12 12y agoHmmm...he was talking about his girlfriend not women in general. Who are we to contest his relationship? Maybe she is pretty. Maybe she does complain a lot. That's his choice to be with her. I don't see the problem. Certainly not a sexist slide. If his girlfriend is pretty and complains then it's factual.
- overgard 12y agoWait, seriously? First off; technicalities: he didn't say "Maven is all women". He said "My girlfriend". Presumably referring to a specific person. His girlfriend has the right to be pissed off, I suppose. Second off, if mild gender stereotypes are worth so much hate you might as well cancel every sitcom on TV.
- zorpner 12y agoRight, he couched his sexist tropes in specific language that provided him with deniability. It's standard, and you seem to have fallen for it.
- overgard 12y agoNo: you read into it what you wanted to read into it. He made a specific statement about a person, and you generalized it into all women. That's on you. Does nobody get the benefit of the doubt anymore because bored social justice warriors are looking for a fucking witch-hunt? Downvote away.
- zorpner 12y agoNo, people who spout sexism that was already old in the 90s do not get the benefit of the doubt. Next question.
- overgard 12y agoSo basically, comments made about one person obviously apply to all people, in your world. (Also: do you seriously think that women have such fragile psyches that they can't take a simple joke? What does that say about your view on women?)
- dllthomas 12y ago"do you seriously think that women have such fragile psyches that they can't take a simple joke? What does that say about your view on women?" I think that plenty of people, men and women, have such fragile psyches that they can't take a joke - or, at least, that taking a joke requires extra effort which distracts from the matter at hand. For the record, I don't think the slide was as bad as some people are making it out to be, but to dismiss concerns over it as motivated by sexism is rhetorical prestidigitation and not an actual argument.
- simonlebo 12y agoWow. Political correctness at its best: bring on the witch hunt! What if he replaced girlfriend with boyfriend? Would that still be sexist? His joke was not on the sex, but on the fact that she was his life partner. You know couple stuff. I kind of feel sorry for him because he was not intending to offend but just be funny. It would be sad if he lost his job over that. I find Atlassian's response makes sense since they are walking on eggs with such a topic.
- guiambros 12y agoWhile this was a stupid judgement error (when in doubt about gender, religion or politics, just stay clear), I wonder what would be the reaction if it was a woman talking about her husband. Or, better yet, someone talking about the same-sex partner. It would be no less wrong, but I believe reaction would be very different.
- amirmc 12y agoIt's when the majority is making jokes about the minority that people get riled up. Even if it's only perceived. Also, taking things out of context adds to the effect.
- MartinCron 12y agoApplying symmetry to an asymmetrical situation is neither a new idea, nor is it very insightful.
- mst 12y agoIt would, however, still be a terrible and counter-productive slide. I feel like this isn't really a "the thought police have rejected your slide" moment so much as a "fucking hell, dude, that was dumb" moment.
- guiambros 12y agoIt would be no less wrong, and would deserve the same scorn this case received. Still, as a thought experiment, I'd love to see how different the reactions would be. It seems that gender discrimination is, sadly, influenced by gender.
- slifty 12y agoSure, in the same way you would water a sapling more than you would water a tree. You need to take special care when it is needed -- right now women face a toxic environment in the tech industry; men do not. It isn't sad that we are training ourselves to be more sensitive to things that worsen that divide.
- duffdevice 12y agoThis is not sexist. This is anti-his-girlfriend-ist. Some people just love being victims I guess.
- srinivsn 12y agoEvery time I see one of these threads, I'm unable to understand responses such as yours. Whether he's referring to his girlfriend or women in general, he's perpetuating a stereotype. This has less to do with sexism, and more to do with offensive stereotyping. You could replace the girlfriend example with anything from this page (first link i found) - http://examples.yourdictionary.com/stereotype-examples.html http://examples.yourdictionary.com/stereotype-examples.html - and it's equally wrong. He's doing it as a representative of his company, and so Atlassian needs to acknowledge that it's wrong, and they're going to do something about it. An employee made a mistake in a public forum - simple as that.
- newaccount4228 12y agoFrom your link: >The definition of a stereotype is any commonly known public belief about a certain social group or a type of individual. That definition kind of contradicts your point. He wasn't referring to women in general (certain social group) or to girlfriends in general (type of individuals). He was referring to his girlfriend. For you to accuse him of perpetuating a stereotype, you would have to claim that his girlfriend represents all women or all girlfriends (which is sexist).
- trhway 12y ago>Whether he's referring to his girlfriend or women in general, he's perpetuating a stereotype. it is you who perpetuates the stereotype by forcefully projecting/extending his reference to his girlfriend onto women in general. Your brain is the exact place where the generalization from his girlfriend to all women happened, and you hold him responsible for that action of your brain.
- dinkumthinkum 12y agoYes, but there is a subtext there. However, I don't totally disagree with you. It was bad taste, unneccessary, and childish but not exactly Douglas Sterling.
- deleted 12y ago[deleted]
- slifty 12y agoFirst: This isn't acceptable, especially in the current ecosystem where we are all working incredibly hard to change a sexist tech culture, and when women have very solid reasons to feel like an objectified minority. Second: Since part of having an open mind is attempting to empathize with people even when they make mistakes (And understand the mentality behind the mistake, since we are ALL IN THIS TOGETHER), I would like to try to un-demonize this guy at an individual level -- again, not trying to detract the larger, meta picture: jokes at the expense of women are NOT OK. I think a lot of the outrage here comes from the fact that we are reading his slide as though he said "Maven is like a woman." He didn't, he said his girlfriend. The issue is that on a public presentation the goal is to say things others can relate to, so the natural conclusion is that he was indeed making a generalization. I'm curious if we would have read it as a more appropriate joke if he had replaced "girlfriend" with a genderless noun like "significant other" or "schnuckums." Really, though, next time you're making a slide like this spare yourself and all of us a lot of trouble and say "my cat" instead.
- MartinCron 12y agoIf that slide said cat, it would have worked perfectly. Brilliant.
- nicomoto1 12y agoI read through his original slide, and I see what was wrong about it. I think changing the name of the slide to "...is my significant other" (or some other term that does not mention any sex) would have still got his point across (a satirical view on (clingy?) relationships). I understand why people are upset seeing how he made a very clear reference to one particular sex. That being said, it is perfectly natural for him to impose his specific preferences when talking in the first perspective (a way of story telling). Eg. You always say gf/bf instead of significant other if you were making any other statement about them (good/bad). The above discussion is purely since we are at the edge of what we would consider sexism, and although I don't know the presenter personally, I would assume his point was to compare a clingy relationship to maven (some software), and not to compare to girls in general or imply that girls are more prone to (clingy?) relationships. (I am assuming the best in him) Given the context and mood of society though I can see how this can be perceived in the way it is being perceived. (Context being clingy seems to be associated with girls, I cant think of any other reason why one gender should be offended if it is perceived to be equally prevalent in both genders.) It seems unfortunate that this is the case, but all in all he should have kept in mind societal perceptions when making his slides. (Rule 1 of making presentations, always keep your audience in mind). I personally would not condone such a slide since it seems to be exploiting to be exploiting a particular gender stereotype. We as a society are guided by our history and perceptions. (A quick example, asking a female chef to return to the kitchen would be considered sexist versus asking a female software engineer to return to her computer which might be insulting but would never be construed as sexist). We must take care to avoid sensitive stereotypes.
- trhway 12y agoso, the guy had bad luck with girlfriends. Now he will be witch hunted for mentioning his experience to other people.