4 ms·

> $40k per year is quite close to minimum wage in California. Exactly. In California. If you want to live off of what is basically donations for community work

by sspiff 12y ago

> $40k per year is quite close to minimum wage in California. Exactly. In California. If you want to live off of what is basically donations for community work, you might want to relocate to a much cheaper place. Eastern Europe or South-East Asia are nice places to live on a tighter budget. I donate a small amount every week myself, though I find it hard to make a bigger commitment to it.

chroma 12y ago
Living in cheap places is fun when you're young, but eventually you take on more responsibilities and your body fails you. Are eastern europe and southeast asia known for their health care? Are dentists cheap there? Most importantly, are they good places to raise a family? I can totally get behind you when it comes to arbitraging cost of living, but not everyone can do that. At best, one could live in an inexpensive part of the US. Still, when it comes to children, school systems and health care are a concern. The problem with Gittip is that anyone who wants to contribute to open source projects has to sacrifice dearly. If you're good enough to collect $40k/year off Gittip, you're probably good enough to collect 10x as much from Google[1]. If you want to provide for your family, the choice is a no-brainer. 1. After stock options, bonuses, etc. Edit: I have no idea why this is at -2. Is there some disconnect between my line of thought and everyone else's?
- 6cxs2hd6 12y ago
  As just one example, you could live in Rochester MN. Nice 4 BR house <= $150,000 [1]. Medical care: The Mayo Clinic. Schools: AFAIK very good. And more culture and more liberal than you probably imagine. There a dozens of places like this between the two insanely expensive coastal zones of the US. Places where things like housing cost nearly an order of magnitude less. [1]: http://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/Rochester-MN/26791_rid/44.410731,-91.975479,43.720994,-92.946396_rect/9_zm/1_fr/ http://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/Rochester-MN/26791_rid/...
  - pessimizer 12y ago
    Are there any black people or sidewalks there? I've been wanting a random change lately and trying to figure out a place to move to get away from Chicago.
    - pessimizer 12y ago
      Thanks, downvoter, for diminishing my concerns as an oppressed minority:)
- gerhardi 12y ago
  Many of the eastern European countries have probably quite equivalent standards of treatment and facilities for lower price tag than in California. I know quite well some people from Estonia, Poland, Latvia and Czech republic and none have really complained about their childhood, healthcare etc. Obviously the atmosphere must have been quite different during the communist regime in the 1980s but nowadays things are different on many levels. But if I had children, I wouldn't hesitate to take my family with me to those countries if there was an interesting opportunity on hand.
  - jacquesm 12y ago
    Hi. I'm currently in Romania, and even though I manage to stay afloat here quite nicely I'd hate to have a family here with kids growing up in this environment. Poland is doing ok and improving steadily, the Czech republic is also quite manageable. But compared to say France, Belgium, the UK, Sweden, Germany and the Netherlands there is still a significant difference. Romania: For instance, infrastructure here is lacking (but internet is quite good), roads are bad, traffic is insanely dangerous, I'm positively terrified of getting into a road accident here. Medical services exist but it's cash up-front or you're in trouble. Older folks are living terrible lives (little or no social net, so tons of beggars on the streets). I would never want to live here with a family, and friends of mine that emigrated here with their kids from Canada have already packed up and left again, their explicitly stated reason is they don't want their children to grow up here. Romania is a beautiful country, it has tons of potential, I know a large number of really nice people here but there is much work to be done and a long way to go to put an end to all the corruption, to fix the terrible state things are in and to get good healthcare. Poland: Poland has done very well, in the last two decades the changes have been enormous. Proximity to Germany has definitely helped the Poles, America has also invested quite a bit of money there. And of course they have helped themselves, they collectively worked very hard to get out of the rut they were in at the end of the 80's. Infrastructure is improving, every time I visit I see new stretches of highway that come online, cities are slowly being cleaned up, there is more or less continuous progress. Healthcare is not super good but it will do. Raising children in Poland would definitely be a possibility. Czech Republic: My knowledge about the Czech republic is thin and mostly second hand, but I know two couples that were mixed nationalities that lived there, both have now moved to different countries in western europe (France and NL respectively). In one of those cases the parents explicitly stated they did not want to live in the Czech republic with children for a number of reasons, all of which sounded plausible to me. (Most prominent: not to limit the future chances of the children). I have no experience with Latvia and Estonia so can't comment on those. So I don't know how much direct experience you have with any of these countries but I would definitely hesitate to bring my children here, I would feel I'm doing them a serious dis-service.
- sspiff 12y ago
  Providing for a family doesn't mean always choosing the most money. If you can have a more relaxed schedule, work load or work-life balance, while having an adequate income, this might be more valuable to your family than having a more generous income but less time for your partner and/or children. I'm young, and don't have any children, but I find that the most precious commodity/currency is time, not material wealth. Of course, I'm speaking from a position of relative comfort, living in a nation with a comprehensive social security system and a decent middle-class income and a degree in engineering. People who have more trouble making ends meet might have a very different view.
- GFischer 12y ago
  If you're willing to forgo cars and iPhones, here in Uruguay we have pretty good healthcare and decent (paid) schools. It won't be as cheap as SE Asia, but it's not as expensive as the United States (for healthcare and schools), but it's extremely expensive for other things. You'll probably find out how much you take for granted not having to pay 100% extra for cars, clothing, etc... and having a salary that doesn't allow for a plane ticket without careful budgeting. As someone without children, Uruguay has a significant downside, but it is a decent place to raise a family (I think a cheap part of the U.S would be better, except with maybe worse schooling).
- dinkumthinkum 12y ago
  I love that many of the responses to this are basically advocating yes that developers should just try to live on $40,000 and move overseas to live cheaper. This hardly smacks of "sustainability." Now, Gittip has to convince programmers that they should want to live with no low income and then therefore be able to use the service. As an aside, as others mentioned, the health care in most Southeast Asian countries is not as bad as you might think.

by sspiff 12y ago

chroma 12y ago

Living in cheap places is fun when you're young, but eventually you take on more responsibilities and your body fails you. Are eastern europe and southeast asia known for their health care? Are dentists cheap there? Most importantly, are they good places to raise a family? I can totally get behind you when it comes to arbitraging cost of living, but not everyone can do that. At best, one could live in an inexpensive part of the US. Still, when it comes to children, school systems and health care are a concern. The problem with Gittip is that anyone who wants to contribute to open source projects has to sacrifice dearly. If you're good enough to collect $40k/year off Gittip, you're probably good enough to collect 10x as much from Google[1]. If you want to provide for your family, the choice is a no-brainer. 1. After stock options, bonuses, etc. Edit: I have no idea why this is at -2. Is there some disconnect between my line of thought and everyone else's?

6cxs2hd6 12y ago
As just one example, you could live in Rochester MN. Nice 4 BR house <= $150,000 [1]. Medical care: The Mayo Clinic. Schools: AFAIK very good. And more culture and more liberal than you probably imagine. There a dozens of places like this between the two insanely expensive coastal zones of the US. Places where things like housing cost nearly an order of magnitude less. [1]: http://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/Rochester-MN/26791_rid/44.410731,-91.975479,43.720994,-92.946396_rect/9_zm/1_fr/ http://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/Rochester-MN/26791_rid/...
- pessimizer 12y ago
  Are there any black people or sidewalks there? I've been wanting a random change lately and trying to figure out a place to move to get away from Chicago.
  - pessimizer 12y ago
    Thanks, downvoter, for diminishing my concerns as an oppressed minority:)
gerhardi 12y ago
Many of the eastern European countries have probably quite equivalent standards of treatment and facilities for lower price tag than in California. I know quite well some people from Estonia, Poland, Latvia and Czech republic and none have really complained about their childhood, healthcare etc. Obviously the atmosphere must have been quite different during the communist regime in the 1980s but nowadays things are different on many levels. But if I had children, I wouldn't hesitate to take my family with me to those countries if there was an interesting opportunity on hand.
- jacquesm 12y ago
  Hi. I'm currently in Romania, and even though I manage to stay afloat here quite nicely I'd hate to have a family here with kids growing up in this environment. Poland is doing ok and improving steadily, the Czech republic is also quite manageable. But compared to say France, Belgium, the UK, Sweden, Germany and the Netherlands there is still a significant difference. Romania: For instance, infrastructure here is lacking (but internet is quite good), roads are bad, traffic is insanely dangerous, I'm positively terrified of getting into a road accident here. Medical services exist but it's cash up-front or you're in trouble. Older folks are living terrible lives (little or no social net, so tons of beggars on the streets). I would never want to live here with a family, and friends of mine that emigrated here with their kids from Canada have already packed up and left again, their explicitly stated reason is they don't want their children to grow up here. Romania is a beautiful country, it has tons of potential, I know a large number of really nice people here but there is much work to be done and a long way to go to put an end to all the corruption, to fix the terrible state things are in and to get good healthcare. Poland: Poland has done very well, in the last two decades the changes have been enormous. Proximity to Germany has definitely helped the Poles, America has also invested quite a bit of money there. And of course they have helped themselves, they collectively worked very hard to get out of the rut they were in at the end of the 80's. Infrastructure is improving, every time I visit I see new stretches of highway that come online, cities are slowly being cleaned up, there is more or less continuous progress. Healthcare is not super good but it will do. Raising children in Poland would definitely be a possibility. Czech Republic: My knowledge about the Czech republic is thin and mostly second hand, but I know two couples that were mixed nationalities that lived there, both have now moved to different countries in western europe (France and NL respectively). In one of those cases the parents explicitly stated they did not want to live in the Czech republic with children for a number of reasons, all of which sounded plausible to me. (Most prominent: not to limit the future chances of the children). I have no experience with Latvia and Estonia so can't comment on those. So I don't know how much direct experience you have with any of these countries but I would definitely hesitate to bring my children here, I would feel I'm doing them a serious dis-service.
sspiff 12y ago
Providing for a family doesn't mean always choosing the most money. If you can have a more relaxed schedule, work load or work-life balance, while having an adequate income, this might be more valuable to your family than having a more generous income but less time for your partner and/or children. I'm young, and don't have any children, but I find that the most precious commodity/currency is time, not material wealth. Of course, I'm speaking from a position of relative comfort, living in a nation with a comprehensive social security system and a decent middle-class income and a degree in engineering. People who have more trouble making ends meet might have a very different view.
GFischer 12y ago
If you're willing to forgo cars and iPhones, here in Uruguay we have pretty good healthcare and decent (paid) schools. It won't be as cheap as SE Asia, but it's not as expensive as the United States (for healthcare and schools), but it's extremely expensive for other things. You'll probably find out how much you take for granted not having to pay 100% extra for cars, clothing, etc... and having a salary that doesn't allow for a plane ticket without careful budgeting. As someone without children, Uruguay has a significant downside, but it is a decent place to raise a family (I think a cheap part of the U.S would be better, except with maybe worse schooling).
dinkumthinkum 12y ago
I love that many of the responses to this are basically advocating yes that developers should just try to live on $40,000 and move overseas to live cheaper. This hardly smacks of "sustainability." Now, Gittip has to convince programmers that they should want to live with no low income and then therefore be able to use the service. As an aside, as others mentioned, the health care in most Southeast Asian countries is not as bad as you might think.