10 ms·

Gittip is a nice idea. But sadly, it has become a place for certain people to receive hefty monthly paychecks from anonymous patrons in exchange for incredibly

by pekk 12y ago

Gittip is a nice idea. But sadly, it has become a place for certain people to receive hefty monthly paychecks from anonymous patrons in exchange for incredibly aggressive and toxic trolling. Despite original intentions, this is not making an ecosystem of love and gratitude. So if its creator isn't even making money from it, it's probably better if it goes to sleep.

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
tshepang 12y ago
Do you have examples of the trolling you talk of?
- ta140604 12y ago
  I believe he was referring to the top two receivers, Shanley [1] and Ashe[2]. These two are a part of the group of very aggressive feminists; there's no official 'group' to speak of (AFAIK), just a network of people supporting each other. Just to give a few names - Alex Gaynor (member of PSF board), Jacob Kaplan-Moss (yep, Django ex-BDFL), Coda Hale (HN/codahale, see his last messages here on HN [3], they're just about Shanley and Gittip), HN/steveklabnik, etc etc A few highlights by Shanley: "Men are rapists" [4] HN's Sam Altman reaches out to women asking what he could do; Shanley reacts: "i'm not insulting you, i'm fucking EDUCATING you. so shut the fuck up and/or pay me, preferably both." [5], while refusing to do anything for HN, not even meeting anyone in person [6] They've been either involved or voiced (shouted, actually) their support to whoever was involved in recent scandals with feminism - Adria Richards @ PyCon (I believe Alex Gaynor helped to make this event as public as possible), pronoun scandal (Alex Gaynor, again, was the author of RP that started the whole thing), Paul Graham misquote (Jacob KM speaks out [7])... I could go on. But, basically, a bunch of very aggressive people, who claim to work on solving the problems women face, but actually (IMO) are just making the whole thing worse. And, back to the subject, seeing them on top of gittip definitely doesn't help the project. Which is said, that's a great idea and I loved it when I saw it. [1] https://twitter.com/shanley https://twitter.com/shanley [2] https://twitter.com/ashedryden https://twitter.com/ashedryden [3] https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=codahale https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=codahale [4] https://twitter.com/shanley/status/451779905475186690 https://twitter.com/shanley/status/451779905475186690 [5] https://twitter.com/shanley/status/446375139488186368 https://twitter.com/shanley/status/446375139488186368 [6] https://twitter.com/shanley/status/446376327218622464 https://twitter.com/shanley/status/446376327218622464 [7] https://twitter.com/jacobian/status/416719991963009024 https://twitter.com/jacobian/status/416719991963009024 PS Oh, this just in. Shanley on how companies can increase diversity: "Hire me to be your diversity consultant I will help you quickly close down your business to make room for better ones" https://twitter.com/shanley/status/474013765252292609 https://twitter.com/shanley/status/474013765252292609
  - ta140604 12y ago
    PPS Sorry for screwed up formatting in links. Edits do not go through for some reason - here's a better formatted version: [1] https://twitter.com/shanley https://twitter.com/shanley [2] https://twitter.com/ashedryden https://twitter.com/ashedryden [3] https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=codahale https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=codahale [4] https://twitter.com/shanley/status/451779905475186690 https://twitter.com/shanley/status/451779905475186690 [5] https://twitter.com/shanley/status/446375139488186368 https://twitter.com/shanley/status/446375139488186368 [6] https://twitter.com/shanley/status/446376327218622464 https://twitter.com/shanley/status/446376327218622464 [7] https://twitter.com/jacobian/status/416719991963009024 https://twitter.com/jacobian/status/416719991963009024
  - rhizome 12y ago
    Pointing out problems is actually a very important part of any solution. You don't lambaste QA people because they don't actually fix bugs.
    - ta140604 12y ago
      Agreed. The problem is, they exaggerate and twist the truth, spread hate, unnecessarily antagonizing people, and actively push away those who try to reach out to them trying to do something.
      - rhizome 12y ago
        I don't agree that any of that is a problem. It's not their responsibility to help you do the right thing any more than it's a (again with the theme) QA person's job to teach the programmer proper coding practice. Separation of concerns, if you will.
        ta140604 12y ago
        If we go on with your analogy, QA report would look as follows: "Your piece of shit program burned down the whole fucking server farm, you useless assclown! You belong in jail!", where the real bug was maybe a crash. That's not a good, or even acceptable QA report, I'd say. Look, if you think saying "men are rapists" is not a problem, there's not much to discuss here. Before that point I had my doubts - okay, they're self-righteous hateful hypocrites, but maybe they're right? I DO know there are problems that women face - maybe they know something I don't, and I should try harder and listen to them? After that I just noped out. And, BTW, their inability to reflect on their action, admit mistakes and apologize is another huge red flag. (I haven't seen any examples, at least - please let me know if you have any, I'd be very glad to see them) And FWIW, I didn't downvote you.
- akanet 12y ago
  He is referring to https://twitter.com/shanley https://twitter.com/shanley, a moderately well known and divisive figure in the tech feminism scene.
  - peteretep 12y ago
    Three of the top four receivers appear to fit the label "moderately well known and divisive figure in the tech feminism scene".
    - PaulHoule 12y ago
      I think more seriously https://www.gittip.com/noirin/ https://www.gittip.com/noirin/ has stuff on her profile that directly deprecates her husband. I don't anything about this case, but I'd say in general it makes me uncomfortable that somebody is bringing up a personal conflict on a platform like this.
      - j46a1 12y ago
        I'm glad that others are voicing their dissent. Gittip has went from an idea of giving open source developers a way to supplement their income via time spent writing software. Instead, it's been hijacked by toxic social justice warriors. One is even for someone supporting their legal issues (unrelated in any way whatsoever to tech). I'd love to see a statement by someone at Gittip responding to this.
        PaulHoule 12y ago
        I'm pretty amazed I got at least three downvotes for what I think is a pretty mild observation.
        swampangel 12y ago
        The post that spawned this subthread amounts to "Since gittip's main beneficiaries are women I disagree with, gittip should be shut down". In that context, do you see how your post is stoking the fire? You didn't indicate what you think gittip is for, just that noirin's use of it is inappropriate. You also said she "deprecates her husband", when she lists 2 facts: a) he was arrested b) he is suing her for things she said about it Plus, he's her ex-husband, and this is a situation where the distinction is important. So in context, I don't think what you said was mild, I think it's somewhat hostile and inaccurate.
- steveklabnik 12y ago
  I only plan on making this single response in this thread. As someone mentioned directly below, you're damn right I'm a staunch feminist. But nobody has 'hijacked' anything: I've known Chad since before Gittip was even a thing, and have been in the top leaders list since when that meant I got less than a dollar. Because that's what happens when you've been using a platform longer than others. Naturally, this extended to my friends, as well. Furthermore, you only make Gittip money if you ask people to donate. The top getters are people who ask more. My sibling presents a one-sided view of multi-faceted people: Shanley, for example, has her own bootstrapped media company that's already profitable, which is more to say than a large number of HN 'entrepreneurs.' (including myself). Anyway, I'm not sure the 'leaderboards' are a good thing, exactly. But this kind of pettiness (from throwaway accounts, no less) is amusing.
  - j46a1 12y ago
    Profitable ... but needs donations? I'm not following.
matdes 12y ago
heavy eyeroll if this is supposed to be a "hidden" jab at tech feminists.
- pekk 12y ago
  No, that wasn't a jab at feminism in tech! Feminism is great and there are some big problems to address in tech. But paying people to stir up heated conflicts and throw Tumblr-style tantrums isn't fixing anything, it is actually misrepresenting women in tech and doing harm to their cause.
  - matdes 12y ago
    http://www.derailingfordummies.com/derail-using-anger/ http://www.derailingfordummies.com/derail-using-anger/ c.f. "You are hurting your cause by being angry" try to be less of a trope.
    - j46a1 12y ago
      STFU Hendrix. Go back to your hen party you white knighting feminist bitch of a man.
    - baddox 12y ago
      Okay, I'll compare "You are hurting your cause by being angry" and "[stirring] up heated conflicts and [throwing] Tumblr-style tantrums." The former is perfectly fine in many situations, and I don't see many people saying that being angry is inherently counterproductive or bad. The latter is widely accepted to be immature and counterproductive.
    - pekk 12y ago
      Women in tech certainly aren't a problem! Feminism isn't a problem. Pointing out problems isn't a problem. Affirmative action isn't a problem. Even being angry isn't a problem. Another poster made a useful comparison to QA. One imagines an otherwise mild-mannered QA Engineer becoming righteously angry about a very scummy feature, or a software defect which threatens lives. But this QA Engineer has better and worse ways to channel that anger into buy-in for a fix. The anger in itself may be useful by leading to useful things, but it may also be harmful if it leads to harmful things. Anyone can understand this if they want to.
joaren 12y ago
I never liked Gittip because of how it advertises its top earners and givers... it stops being about rewarding good work and starts to become a game of who can score the most validation points and use them for political gain. Yelling on Twitter and demonizing men for existing is not "promoting empathy and equality". Begging for legal money for your civil lawsuit is not "sustainable crowd funding" (hint: what is she being sued for? it doesn't say.). Sorry Gittip, but your site has turned into a joke dominated by professional victims.
- whit537 12y ago
  Thanks for the feedback! I've added a +1 w/ your comment re: the leaderboards to https://github.com/gittip/www.gittip.com/issues/1074 https://github.com/gittip/www.gittip.com/issues/1074.
  - janl 12y ago
    @whit537 big fan of Gittip, but inviting misogynists onto your platform is not the right thing to do.
  - calibraxis 12y ago
    God, it disgusts me to put my money through your system. (Due to either your incompetence or malice towards Gittip's top earners.) Can't wait when a decent alternative to you pops up. But thanks for reminding me that I neglected to end my private Github account!
- dinkumthinkum 12y ago
  Yes, and what in the world does such nonsense have to do with rewarding open source developers? I feel like its a hobby business but everyone makes their own decisions.
- danilocampos 12y ago
  Indeed. A pox upon the beggars. How dare they ask others to volunteer money for a cause or outcome they believe in. I call for refunds from: Pebble Oculus Reading Rainbow Lifx Double Fine Adventure Lavabit Wikileaks Ron Paul Barack May they think carefully in the future before acting in such poor taste.
betamatt 12y ago
The only way you get money on gittip is by producing something others think is valuable and want to see more of. People are voting with their money, which is infinitely heavier than voting with HN comments.
- unreal37 12y ago
  Could I not pay myself $100 per week? Or could I not pay you $100 per week if you pay me $100 per week? Seems the voting with money system can easily be gamed.
  - betamatt 12y ago
    Yes, sure, whatever, who cares? Irrelevant to a conversation about who has a "right" to use the platform, and for what purposes.
    - pekk 12y ago
      Nobody is denying anyone the right to use the platform.
      - betamatt 12y ago
        But you think they should. You said they should shut down rather than serve users you disagree with. That kind of thinking is toxic.
slumber 12y ago
oh for sure man

by pekk 12y ago

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

tshepang 12y ago

Do you have examples of the trolling you talk of?

ta140604 12y ago
I believe he was referring to the top two receivers, Shanley [1] and Ashe[2]. These two are a part of the group of very aggressive feminists; there's no official 'group' to speak of (AFAIK), just a network of people supporting each other. Just to give a few names - Alex Gaynor (member of PSF board), Jacob Kaplan-Moss (yep, Django ex-BDFL), Coda Hale (HN/codahale, see his last messages here on HN [3], they're just about Shanley and Gittip), HN/steveklabnik, etc etc A few highlights by Shanley: "Men are rapists" [4] HN's Sam Altman reaches out to women asking what he could do; Shanley reacts: "i'm not insulting you, i'm fucking EDUCATING you. so shut the fuck up and/or pay me, preferably both." [5], while refusing to do anything for HN, not even meeting anyone in person [6] They've been either involved or voiced (shouted, actually) their support to whoever was involved in recent scandals with feminism - Adria Richards @ PyCon (I believe Alex Gaynor helped to make this event as public as possible), pronoun scandal (Alex Gaynor, again, was the author of RP that started the whole thing), Paul Graham misquote (Jacob KM speaks out [7])... I could go on. But, basically, a bunch of very aggressive people, who claim to work on solving the problems women face, but actually (IMO) are just making the whole thing worse. And, back to the subject, seeing them on top of gittip definitely doesn't help the project. Which is said, that's a great idea and I loved it when I saw it. [1] https://twitter.com/shanley https://twitter.com/shanley [2] https://twitter.com/ashedryden https://twitter.com/ashedryden [3] https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=codahale https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=codahale [4] https://twitter.com/shanley/status/451779905475186690 https://twitter.com/shanley/status/451779905475186690 [5] https://twitter.com/shanley/status/446375139488186368 https://twitter.com/shanley/status/446375139488186368 [6] https://twitter.com/shanley/status/446376327218622464 https://twitter.com/shanley/status/446376327218622464 [7] https://twitter.com/jacobian/status/416719991963009024 https://twitter.com/jacobian/status/416719991963009024 PS Oh, this just in. Shanley on how companies can increase diversity: "Hire me to be your diversity consultant I will help you quickly close down your business to make room for better ones" https://twitter.com/shanley/status/474013765252292609 https://twitter.com/shanley/status/474013765252292609
- ta140604 12y ago
  PPS Sorry for screwed up formatting in links. Edits do not go through for some reason - here's a better formatted version: [1] https://twitter.com/shanley https://twitter.com/shanley [2] https://twitter.com/ashedryden https://twitter.com/ashedryden [3] https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=codahale https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=codahale [4] https://twitter.com/shanley/status/451779905475186690 https://twitter.com/shanley/status/451779905475186690 [5] https://twitter.com/shanley/status/446375139488186368 https://twitter.com/shanley/status/446375139488186368 [6] https://twitter.com/shanley/status/446376327218622464 https://twitter.com/shanley/status/446376327218622464 [7] https://twitter.com/jacobian/status/416719991963009024 https://twitter.com/jacobian/status/416719991963009024
- rhizome 12y ago
  Pointing out problems is actually a very important part of any solution. You don't lambaste QA people because they don't actually fix bugs.
  - ta140604 12y ago
    Agreed. The problem is, they exaggerate and twist the truth, spread hate, unnecessarily antagonizing people, and actively push away those who try to reach out to them trying to do something.
    - rhizome 12y ago
      I don't agree that any of that is a problem. It's not their responsibility to help you do the right thing any more than it's a (again with the theme) QA person's job to teach the programmer proper coding practice. Separation of concerns, if you will.
      - ta140604 12y ago
        If we go on with your analogy, QA report would look as follows: "Your piece of shit program burned down the whole fucking server farm, you useless assclown! You belong in jail!", where the real bug was maybe a crash. That's not a good, or even acceptable QA report, I'd say. Look, if you think saying "men are rapists" is not a problem, there's not much to discuss here. Before that point I had my doubts - okay, they're self-righteous hateful hypocrites, but maybe they're right? I DO know there are problems that women face - maybe they know something I don't, and I should try harder and listen to them? After that I just noped out. And, BTW, their inability to reflect on their action, admit mistakes and apologize is another huge red flag. (I haven't seen any examples, at least - please let me know if you have any, I'd be very glad to see them) And FWIW, I didn't downvote you.
akanet 12y ago
He is referring to https://twitter.com/shanley https://twitter.com/shanley, a moderately well known and divisive figure in the tech feminism scene.
- peteretep 12y ago
  Three of the top four receivers appear to fit the label "moderately well known and divisive figure in the tech feminism scene".
  - PaulHoule 12y ago
    I think more seriously https://www.gittip.com/noirin/ https://www.gittip.com/noirin/ has stuff on her profile that directly deprecates her husband. I don't anything about this case, but I'd say in general it makes me uncomfortable that somebody is bringing up a personal conflict on a platform like this.
    - j46a1 12y ago
      I'm glad that others are voicing their dissent. Gittip has went from an idea of giving open source developers a way to supplement their income via time spent writing software. Instead, it's been hijacked by toxic social justice warriors. One is even for someone supporting their legal issues (unrelated in any way whatsoever to tech). I'd love to see a statement by someone at Gittip responding to this.
      - PaulHoule 12y ago
        I'm pretty amazed I got at least three downvotes for what I think is a pretty mild observation.
        swampangel 12y ago
        The post that spawned this subthread amounts to "Since gittip's main beneficiaries are women I disagree with, gittip should be shut down". In that context, do you see how your post is stoking the fire? You didn't indicate what you think gittip is for, just that noirin's use of it is inappropriate. You also said she "deprecates her husband", when she lists 2 facts: a) he was arrested b) he is suing her for things she said about it Plus, he's her ex-husband, and this is a situation where the distinction is important. So in context, I don't think what you said was mild, I think it's somewhat hostile and inaccurate.
steveklabnik 12y ago
I only plan on making this single response in this thread. As someone mentioned directly below, you're damn right I'm a staunch feminist. But nobody has 'hijacked' anything: I've known Chad since before Gittip was even a thing, and have been in the top leaders list since when that meant I got less than a dollar. Because that's what happens when you've been using a platform longer than others. Naturally, this extended to my friends, as well. Furthermore, you only make Gittip money if you ask people to donate. The top getters are people who ask more. My sibling presents a one-sided view of multi-faceted people: Shanley, for example, has her own bootstrapped media company that's already profitable, which is more to say than a large number of HN 'entrepreneurs.' (including myself). Anyway, I'm not sure the 'leaderboards' are a good thing, exactly. But this kind of pettiness (from throwaway accounts, no less) is amusing.
- j46a1 12y ago
  Profitable ... but needs donations? I'm not following.

matdes 12y ago

heavy eyeroll if this is supposed to be a "hidden" jab at tech feminists.

pekk 12y ago
No, that wasn't a jab at feminism in tech! Feminism is great and there are some big problems to address in tech. But paying people to stir up heated conflicts and throw Tumblr-style tantrums isn't fixing anything, it is actually misrepresenting women in tech and doing harm to their cause.
- matdes 12y ago
  http://www.derailingfordummies.com/derail-using-anger/ http://www.derailingfordummies.com/derail-using-anger/ c.f. "You are hurting your cause by being angry" try to be less of a trope.
  - j46a1 12y ago
    STFU Hendrix. Go back to your hen party you white knighting feminist bitch of a man.
  - baddox 12y ago
    Okay, I'll compare "You are hurting your cause by being angry" and "[stirring] up heated conflicts and [throwing] Tumblr-style tantrums." The former is perfectly fine in many situations, and I don't see many people saying that being angry is inherently counterproductive or bad. The latter is widely accepted to be immature and counterproductive.
  - pekk 12y ago
    Women in tech certainly aren't a problem! Feminism isn't a problem. Pointing out problems isn't a problem. Affirmative action isn't a problem. Even being angry isn't a problem. Another poster made a useful comparison to QA. One imagines an otherwise mild-mannered QA Engineer becoming righteously angry about a very scummy feature, or a software defect which threatens lives. But this QA Engineer has better and worse ways to channel that anger into buy-in for a fix. The anger in itself may be useful by leading to useful things, but it may also be harmful if it leads to harmful things. Anyone can understand this if they want to.

joaren 12y ago

I never liked Gittip because of how it advertises its top earners and givers... it stops being about rewarding good work and starts to become a game of who can score the most validation points and use them for political gain. Yelling on Twitter and demonizing men for existing is not "promoting empathy and equality". Begging for legal money for your civil lawsuit is not "sustainable crowd funding" (hint: what is she being sued for? it doesn't say.). Sorry Gittip, but your site has turned into a joke dominated by professional victims.

whit537 12y ago
Thanks for the feedback! I've added a +1 w/ your comment re: the leaderboards to https://github.com/gittip/www.gittip.com/issues/1074 https://github.com/gittip/www.gittip.com/issues/1074.
- janl 12y ago
  @whit537 big fan of Gittip, but inviting misogynists onto your platform is not the right thing to do.
- calibraxis 12y ago
  God, it disgusts me to put my money through your system. (Due to either your incompetence or malice towards Gittip's top earners.) Can't wait when a decent alternative to you pops up. But thanks for reminding me that I neglected to end my private Github account!
dinkumthinkum 12y ago
Yes, and what in the world does such nonsense have to do with rewarding open source developers? I feel like its a hobby business but everyone makes their own decisions.
danilocampos 12y ago
Indeed. A pox upon the beggars. How dare they ask others to volunteer money for a cause or outcome they believe in. I call for refunds from: Pebble Oculus Reading Rainbow Lifx Double Fine Adventure Lavabit Wikileaks Ron Paul Barack May they think carefully in the future before acting in such poor taste.

betamatt 12y ago

The only way you get money on gittip is by producing something others think is valuable and want to see more of. People are voting with their money, which is infinitely heavier than voting with HN comments.

unreal37 12y ago
Could I not pay myself $100 per week? Or could I not pay you $100 per week if you pay me $100 per week? Seems the voting with money system can easily be gamed.
- betamatt 12y ago
  Yes, sure, whatever, who cares? Irrelevant to a conversation about who has a "right" to use the platform, and for what purposes.
  - pekk 12y ago
    Nobody is denying anyone the right to use the platform.
    - betamatt 12y ago
      But you think they should. You said they should shut down rather than serve users you disagree with. That kind of thinking is toxic.

slumber 12y ago

oh for sure man