8 ms·

Exposing yourself to the direct, harsh feedback of the market is key. I've noticed that bad founders will do just about anything to avoid this. Instead of selli

by paul 12y ago

Exposing yourself to the direct, harsh feedback of the market is key. I've noticed that bad founders will do just about anything to avoid this. Instead of selling, which is hard, they spend their time going to conferences and meetups, trying to do PR, talking to biz dev people about partnerships, etc. It all sounds like work, but mainly serves to insulate them from the harsh reality that nobody wants their product.

jt2190 12y ago
In addition, people are socialized to avoid giving insult, so even if they hate your product they won't tell you to your face. If all the user feedback you're collecting is positive but you're not seeing user uptake, you're probably not getting honest feedback.
- paul 12y ago
  That's why I always tell them to get an LOI. Often people will say, "that sounds great, let us know when it's ready", and the founder will mistakenly think that's a sale. Even asking someone to sign a non-binding LOI forces a lot more honesty.
  - wmeredith 12y ago
    LOI?
    - sebg 12y ago
      Letter of Intent - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_of_intent http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_of_intent
    - hansyeakel 12y ago
      Letter of intent. Pre-selling also works well in these situations to judge actual demand.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
  - SteliE 12y ago
    I always like to ask "What will it take for you to become a customer of ours?" The key is to keep following up with questions until you arrive at a point when they say "and yes, then we'd buy" See more about it here if interested: http://blog.close.io/sales-hacking-kung-fu-how-to-virtually-close-every-single-customer http://blog.close.io/sales-hacking-kung-fu-how-to-virtually-...
  - hglaser 12y ago
    This was one of the most helpful pieces of advice I ever got as a founder. Pre-product, when customers would say "Yes, I would buy this," we asked them to sign a non-binding LOI to that effect. Nowadays, if a prospect says they'll buy when we have feature X, we ask them to sign a modified customer contract that says they don't have to pay until we mutually agree that the feature is done. It has saved countless developer months spent on features that were not the real reason the customer didn't want to buy. And it sometimes causes the prospect to start saying, "well, actually, the issue is..." and then you can get the real feedback.
  - bernardlunn 12y ago
    Forcing to a yes or no is key. I prefer yes, can manage no, but I have no way to manage maybe, it just closes other options without delivering results.
- AndrewKemendo 12y ago
  Here is what I found when I was out selling: The only thing worse than getting a no is getting nothing. At least with No, you get feedback and that is valuable. The only way you can get to "no" or "yes" is by pushing the customer to give you an answer and people in general are hesitant to be that pushy.
gk1 12y ago
One way to get that direct feedback is through usability tests of your product. All I mean by that is conducting somewhat-structured conversations with prospects as they explore your product. I did just this with a startup recently, and the feedback we collected was immensely helpful and very insightful. For those interested, I wrote about it here: http://www.gkogan.co/blog/usability-testing-case-study/ http://www.gkogan.co/blog/usability-testing-case-study/
- emilioolivares 12y ago
  This was a great write-up, you should post to the main site.
  - adrianhoward 12y ago
    If you want to start doing usability testing I'd recommend getting a copy of Steve Krug's Rocket Surgery Made Easy (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Rocket-Surgery-Made-Easy-yourself/dp/0321657292 http://www.amazon.co.uk/Rocket-Surgery-Made-Easy-yourself/dp...). It will probably take you less than an hour to read and will stop you making the basic mistakes I see folk new to usability testing make.
djb_hackernews 12y ago
As a former cofounder on the technical side I ran into this exact situation with my cofounders. Do you have any advice for past me to encourage selling and discourage "networking" activities in a way that doesn't look like the tech person is telling the business person how to do business things?
- griffordson 12y ago
  Partner with proven ethical sales people rather than B.S. artists. As a technical person working a job, the best way for you to meet such people is to work with them in a technical capacity. If your current job doesn't give you opportunities to work with the best sales people in your company (including traveling with them to meet customers), find one that does. And if you are a cofounder, whether technical or not, you are a business person first. If you aren't sharing your opinions on the best way to sell to your prospects you aren't doing your most important job as a founder.
  - ehurrell 12y ago
    I'd second this, I remember something that really struck a chord with me was Eric Ries saying, in a LeanConf Interview session that a founder does whatever is needed for a company to survive first and foremost, and the technical aspect is just the fact that you have more experience in that area.
- rhizome 12y ago
  Well, if they have to be told that networking is not sales, is not bringing money in, then you shouldn't worry about it looking like you are telling them how to do business things. You're just telling them to do business things.
rtx 12y ago
I think one way around it would be to outsource you lead gen. You will at-least have a willing audience when you present.
- ghiculescu 12y ago
  This sounds like another cop out. If you really have a good product, get a list of customers who'd benefit from it, then start calling. You'll learn a lot about how good your product actually is.
  - rtx 12y ago
    You don't exactly get such lists. We don't have a filter for customers with needs. So the best option is do an manual filtering. This can save valuable time for the sales time.
    - ghiculescu 12y ago
      Bollocks. If you can't - at least in broad terms - describe the kind of business/consumer that would benefit from your product, then are you really ready to start selling? And if you can describe them - then surely you can get a rough idea of where they hang out, who they are, etc. Otherwise you are just throwing darts blindly and hoping they hit.
    - grayclhn 12y ago
      >You don't exactly get such lists. A lot of people would argue that this is a key part of understanding your market. If you don't have a such a list, it probably makes sense to hustle, cold-call, talk to people you know closer to the industry, etc (i.e., exactly the same steps people are describing as "sales") to get one.
    - vidarh 12y ago
      The problem is an outsourced lead gen company will not understand what signifies a good lead if you don't, and they will call people and pick up on the wrong things. Using outsourced lead gen. is great if you can describe exactly how their staff can identify what makes a good lead, and can follow them up closely to give feedback about which leads were good and which weren't, and why. But unless you've done the whole process yourself first, you're unlikely to know exactly how to best instruct them.
EricDeb 12y ago
Frantic energy as a defense against impotence.
jf22 12y ago
This is exactly why I left my last company. Two other co-founders where obsessed with doing this type of shit.
Alex3917 12y ago
While this makes sense, if you use what you learn doing sales to actually improve your product (or the pitch, engine of growth, etc.) then you're back to doing marketing.
tptacek 12y ago
When I said yesterday in a thread about Perfect Audience (which just sold for 25.5MM) that Brad Flora was my working definition of "hustle", and someone asked me what I meant --- this is exactly what I meant. He would describe what he was doing to move sales processes forward in Chicago and I would react by wincing, and then amazement. This is also why one of the most powerful bits of advice I've ever picked up from HN is Paul Graham's (paraphrased) "if nobody makes fun of your crappy product when you launch it, you waited too long to launch". For a lot of developers, the resistance to sales shows itself in a strong feeling that the product isn't done, isn't ready. The Steve Blank process is a pretty good antidote to this. Also: startup hipsters and MBA types will talk down cold-calling, but I have a friend hustling a pretty complicated product right now and I have watched him make cold calls work. Again: wince, then jaw drop. Then learn.
- cjf4 12y ago
  Beyond the value that you get from whatever sales from cold calling, it's a character building experience. It sucks, it's a grind, but you're definitely a more resilient person after dogging through 200 phone calls where no one wants to talk to you.
- davemel37 12y ago
  Anyone who thinks cold calling doesn't work is living in a bubble. It is still the quickest way to reach your prospects and one of the most effective forms of marketing when you crunch the math properly... http://affordablemarketinglists.com/why-cold-calling-works-in-2013-infographic/ http://affordablemarketinglists.com/why-cold-calling-works-i...
- tlogan 12y ago
  Simple advice: if somebody expresses even a slight interest in your product keep calling until you get firm "no - I don't want your product" (preferably not yelling at you). And founder(s) MUST BE doing that 'till company has maybe 5 to 6 employees. Even if founders are not "good in sales". When company is early, there is no "good in sales": it is just if your product solves the problem or not.
- staunch 12y ago
silverbax88 12y ago
I have to say there are so many conversations I have (usually consulting with someone looking to do a startup) and one of the first things that comes up regardless of the market/problem is "maybe we could do some machine learning..." and I immediately think "you're doing it wrong". I didn't start making significant sales in my businesses until I learned to stop focusing on the tech stuff and just throw together a manual process and start working on selling.
notastartup 12y ago
beautifully put. medicine really is bitter but it makes sense.
ehurrell 12y ago
One of the hardest things is seeing this happen, because there can be a lot of pride and hubris associated with doing good PR, biz dev etc. A lot of the time this comment, which is true and I can't emphasis it enough, will hit a wall of resistance for whatever reason.

by paul 12y ago

jt2190 12y ago

In addition, people are socialized to avoid giving insult, so even if they hate your product they won't tell you to your face. If all the user feedback you're collecting is positive but you're not seeing user uptake, you're probably not getting honest feedback.

paul 12y ago
That's why I always tell them to get an LOI. Often people will say, "that sounds great, let us know when it's ready", and the founder will mistakenly think that's a sale. Even asking someone to sign a non-binding LOI forces a lot more honesty.
- wmeredith 12y ago
  LOI?
  - sebg 12y ago
    Letter of Intent - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_of_intent http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_of_intent
  - hansyeakel 12y ago
    Letter of intent. Pre-selling also works well in these situations to judge actual demand.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- SteliE 12y ago
  I always like to ask "What will it take for you to become a customer of ours?" The key is to keep following up with questions until you arrive at a point when they say "and yes, then we'd buy" See more about it here if interested: http://blog.close.io/sales-hacking-kung-fu-how-to-virtually-close-every-single-customer http://blog.close.io/sales-hacking-kung-fu-how-to-virtually-...
- hglaser 12y ago
  This was one of the most helpful pieces of advice I ever got as a founder. Pre-product, when customers would say "Yes, I would buy this," we asked them to sign a non-binding LOI to that effect. Nowadays, if a prospect says they'll buy when we have feature X, we ask them to sign a modified customer contract that says they don't have to pay until we mutually agree that the feature is done. It has saved countless developer months spent on features that were not the real reason the customer didn't want to buy. And it sometimes causes the prospect to start saying, "well, actually, the issue is..." and then you can get the real feedback.
- bernardlunn 12y ago
  Forcing to a yes or no is key. I prefer yes, can manage no, but I have no way to manage maybe, it just closes other options without delivering results.
AndrewKemendo 12y ago
Here is what I found when I was out selling: The only thing worse than getting a no is getting nothing. At least with No, you get feedback and that is valuable. The only way you can get to "no" or "yes" is by pushing the customer to give you an answer and people in general are hesitant to be that pushy.

gk1 12y ago

One way to get that direct feedback is through usability tests of your product. All I mean by that is conducting somewhat-structured conversations with prospects as they explore your product. I did just this with a startup recently, and the feedback we collected was immensely helpful and very insightful. For those interested, I wrote about it here: http://www.gkogan.co/blog/usability-testing-case-study/ http://www.gkogan.co/blog/usability-testing-case-study/

emilioolivares 12y ago
This was a great write-up, you should post to the main site.
- adrianhoward 12y ago
  If you want to start doing usability testing I'd recommend getting a copy of Steve Krug's Rocket Surgery Made Easy (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Rocket-Surgery-Made-Easy-yourself/dp/0321657292 http://www.amazon.co.uk/Rocket-Surgery-Made-Easy-yourself/dp...). It will probably take you less than an hour to read and will stop you making the basic mistakes I see folk new to usability testing make.

djb_hackernews 12y ago

As a former cofounder on the technical side I ran into this exact situation with my cofounders. Do you have any advice for past me to encourage selling and discourage "networking" activities in a way that doesn't look like the tech person is telling the business person how to do business things?

griffordson 12y ago
Partner with proven ethical sales people rather than B.S. artists. As a technical person working a job, the best way for you to meet such people is to work with them in a technical capacity. If your current job doesn't give you opportunities to work with the best sales people in your company (including traveling with them to meet customers), find one that does. And if you are a cofounder, whether technical or not, you are a business person first. If you aren't sharing your opinions on the best way to sell to your prospects you aren't doing your most important job as a founder.
- ehurrell 12y ago
  I'd second this, I remember something that really struck a chord with me was Eric Ries saying, in a LeanConf Interview session that a founder does whatever is needed for a company to survive first and foremost, and the technical aspect is just the fact that you have more experience in that area.
rhizome 12y ago
Well, if they have to be told that networking is not sales, is not bringing money in, then you shouldn't worry about it looking like you are telling them how to do business things. You're just telling them to do business things.

rtx 12y ago

I think one way around it would be to outsource you lead gen. You will at-least have a willing audience when you present.

ghiculescu 12y ago
This sounds like another cop out. If you really have a good product, get a list of customers who'd benefit from it, then start calling. You'll learn a lot about how good your product actually is.
- rtx 12y ago
  You don't exactly get such lists. We don't have a filter for customers with needs. So the best option is do an manual filtering. This can save valuable time for the sales time.
  - ghiculescu 12y ago
    Bollocks. If you can't - at least in broad terms - describe the kind of business/consumer that would benefit from your product, then are you really ready to start selling? And if you can describe them - then surely you can get a rough idea of where they hang out, who they are, etc. Otherwise you are just throwing darts blindly and hoping they hit.
  - grayclhn 12y ago
    >You don't exactly get such lists. A lot of people would argue that this is a key part of understanding your market. If you don't have a such a list, it probably makes sense to hustle, cold-call, talk to people you know closer to the industry, etc (i.e., exactly the same steps people are describing as "sales") to get one.
  - vidarh 12y ago
    The problem is an outsourced lead gen company will not understand what signifies a good lead if you don't, and they will call people and pick up on the wrong things. Using outsourced lead gen. is great if you can describe exactly how their staff can identify what makes a good lead, and can follow them up closely to give feedback about which leads were good and which weren't, and why. But unless you've done the whole process yourself first, you're unlikely to know exactly how to best instruct them.

EricDeb 12y ago

Frantic energy as a defense against impotence.

jf22 12y ago

This is exactly why I left my last company. Two other co-founders where obsessed with doing this type of shit.

Alex3917 12y ago

While this makes sense, if you use what you learn doing sales to actually improve your product (or the pitch, engine of growth, etc.) then you're back to doing marketing.

tptacek 12y ago

When I said yesterday in a thread about Perfect Audience (which just sold for 25.5MM) that Brad Flora was my working definition of "hustle", and someone asked me what I meant --- this is exactly what I meant. He would describe what he was doing to move sales processes forward in Chicago and I would react by wincing, and then amazement. This is also why one of the most powerful bits of advice I've ever picked up from HN is Paul Graham's (paraphrased) "if nobody makes fun of your crappy product when you launch it, you waited too long to launch". For a lot of developers, the resistance to sales shows itself in a strong feeling that the product isn't done, isn't ready. The Steve Blank process is a pretty good antidote to this. Also: startup hipsters and MBA types will talk down cold-calling, but I have a friend hustling a pretty complicated product right now and I have watched him make cold calls work. Again: wince, then jaw drop. Then learn.

cjf4 12y ago
Beyond the value that you get from whatever sales from cold calling, it's a character building experience. It sucks, it's a grind, but you're definitely a more resilient person after dogging through 200 phone calls where no one wants to talk to you.
davemel37 12y ago
Anyone who thinks cold calling doesn't work is living in a bubble. It is still the quickest way to reach your prospects and one of the most effective forms of marketing when you crunch the math properly... http://affordablemarketinglists.com/why-cold-calling-works-in-2013-infographic/ http://affordablemarketinglists.com/why-cold-calling-works-i...
tlogan 12y ago
Simple advice: if somebody expresses even a slight interest in your product keep calling until you get firm "no - I don't want your product" (preferably not yelling at you). And founder(s) MUST BE doing that 'till company has maybe 5 to 6 employees. Even if founders are not "good in sales". When company is early, there is no "good in sales": it is just if your product solves the problem or not.
staunch 12y ago

silverbax88 12y ago

I have to say there are so many conversations I have (usually consulting with someone looking to do a startup) and one of the first things that comes up regardless of the market/problem is "maybe we could do some machine learning..." and I immediately think "you're doing it wrong". I didn't start making significant sales in my businesses until I learned to stop focusing on the tech stuff and just throw together a manual process and start working on selling.

notastartup 12y ago

beautifully put. medicine really is bitter but it makes sense.

ehurrell 12y ago

One of the hardest things is seeing this happen, because there can be a lot of pride and hubris associated with doing good PR, biz dev etc. A lot of the time this comment, which is true and I can't emphasis it enough, will hit a wall of resistance for whatever reason.