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I know this is kind of a sidelight to the main discussion, but you brought it up, so... is there a single instance of a AAA game being made with Unity3D? And u

by cwyers 12y ago

I know this is kind of a sidelight to the main discussion, but you brought it up, so... is there a single instance of a AAA game being made with Unity3D? And using third-party engines doesn't directly address a lot of the other questions about Linux gaming (drivers, fragmentation, back-catalog games), it doesn't help out with the large number of AAA games that are made on first-party engines (Square Enix uses a lot of Crystal Engine, Ubisoft has a handful of its own engines, EA games use their own engines for the most part), and it doesn't help turn Linux into a more compelling general-purpose desktop OS. Generally in order to convert people, you need to be able to offer something better than what they currently have (for THEIR definition of better, not yours), not close-to parity on a subset of what they currently have. EDIT: And third-party engines make it easier to port, so long as you're using them as-is. If you have a source code license and you're modifying the engine, then you're right back to supporting another platform in code. And even if you're shipping the stock engine with your game, you still have an increased testing and support burden when you ship a game for Linux.

pionar 12y ago
I think the hope is that with the pressure of Valve, with the SteamBox and Steam OS, the game publishers will make that investment. Valve is also making considerable investment in abstracting away all that fragmentation and drivers worries through the Steam Runtime (linked to in another comment).
- cwyers 12y ago
  Well, yes, that's certainly the hope. But it's not necessarily a guarantee. It's a chicken-and-egg problem, and the thing about addressing it from the egg side alone is that not all eggs are chicken eggs. Even if you make Linux games, it's not guaranteed to result in chickens. Valve hasn't managed to come up with a single value proposition to make gaming actually better on Linux than Windows, or to come up with any games that run significantly better on Linux than Windows, or any exclusive Linux games.
ekianjo 12y ago
> And using third-party engines doesn't directly address a lot of the other questions about Linux gaming (drivers, fragmentation, back-catalog games), it doesn't help out with the large number of AAA games that are made on first-party engines (Square Enix uses a lot of Crystal Engine, Ubisoft has a handful of its own engines, EA games use their own engines for the most part), and it doesn't help turn Linux into a more compelling general-purpose desktop OS. Wow, a lot of points made in a very few words. Here's my take on your comments: * Drivers: massively improved for nVidia cards, probably very close to Windows performance nowadays. For ATI, I guess the state of it is "meh", but it's getting a bit better progressively. For now gaming on Linux should be with nVidia (and Intel). * Fragmentation: this problem is a myth and has been debunked so many times already, I don't want to discuss it here. * Back catalog games: a lot of it can be handled with WINE with no additional modification needed. * AAA games engines: Square Enix is a Japanese publisher, focused on Consoles first, then PC, and when they mean PC they only have the image of Windows because Linux is non-existent in Japan (mostly). So I would not be surprised if they were the very last ones to jump on the bandwagon. UbiSoft has become a "console first" publisher as well, so I don't hope much from their side as well. * compelling desktop OS: Linux in some of its best distros IS already very compelling, much more than Windows 8 where you have to relearn everything from scratch again. It's faster, you have repositories for updates, Firefox runs like a dream on it (on the same hardware I always find the Windows version running way more slowly), and you have great Free Software for most of the uses you need, without viruses, ads and stuff like that. It's VERY functional. Of course some people will bitch about not having Adobe products, or X or Y software, but you can always keep a double boot or a virtual machine if you really need something. Distros get updates automatically, instead of the ancient way of doing updates on Windows with service packs and the like. Since I've switched to Linux years ago I have never looked back, except for games and video editing. And I know I'm not the only one, and I see Linux distros improving release after release.
- cwyers 12y ago
  Coldpie's posts in this thread seem to suggest that fragmentation is more of an issue than you want to admit here, at least. In terms of drivers... "very close" is not the same as "as good as," much less "better." Which is again the problem here -- in order to supplant a dominant market leader you actually have to do something better. If your drivers are VERY CLOSE to the quality of Windows, for a a subset of the leading manufacturers, and you can get MOST of the big AAA publishers to do ports, and a LOT of the back catalog can run under WINE... do you see what I'm saying? It's playing catch-up, and it's not quite getting to parity, and even parity is unlikely to get significant market share. As for desktop Linux -- that's a whole other kettle of fish, but I think you'll find that most of the people who are ready to switch to Linux on the desktop already have, and as you say are dual-booting for games. Unless something happens there to convince more people that Linux on the desktop is a compelling alternative, then Linux's overall desktop market penetration is probably a pretty good guide to what Linux's share of the gaming PC market could be unless Valve or somebody is able to provide a compelling "better than Windows" experience in at least ONE aspect.

by cwyers 12y ago

pionar 12y ago

I think the hope is that with the pressure of Valve, with the SteamBox and Steam OS, the game publishers will make that investment. Valve is also making considerable investment in abstracting away all that fragmentation and drivers worries through the Steam Runtime (linked to in another comment).

cwyers 12y ago
Well, yes, that's certainly the hope. But it's not necessarily a guarantee. It's a chicken-and-egg problem, and the thing about addressing it from the egg side alone is that not all eggs are chicken eggs. Even if you make Linux games, it's not guaranteed to result in chickens. Valve hasn't managed to come up with a single value proposition to make gaming actually better on Linux than Windows, or to come up with any games that run significantly better on Linux than Windows, or any exclusive Linux games.

ekianjo 12y ago

> And using third-party engines doesn't directly address a lot of the other questions about Linux gaming (drivers, fragmentation, back-catalog games), it doesn't help out with the large number of AAA games that are made on first-party engines (Square Enix uses a lot of Crystal Engine, Ubisoft has a handful of its own engines, EA games use their own engines for the most part), and it doesn't help turn Linux into a more compelling general-purpose desktop OS. Wow, a lot of points made in a very few words. Here's my take on your comments: * Drivers: massively improved for nVidia cards, probably very close to Windows performance nowadays. For ATI, I guess the state of it is "meh", but it's getting a bit better progressively. For now gaming on Linux should be with nVidia (and Intel). * Fragmentation: this problem is a myth and has been debunked so many times already, I don't want to discuss it here. * Back catalog games: a lot of it can be handled with WINE with no additional modification needed. * AAA games engines: Square Enix is a Japanese publisher, focused on Consoles first, then PC, and when they mean PC they only have the image of Windows because Linux is non-existent in Japan (mostly). So I would not be surprised if they were the very last ones to jump on the bandwagon. UbiSoft has become a "console first" publisher as well, so I don't hope much from their side as well. * compelling desktop OS: Linux in some of its best distros IS already very compelling, much more than Windows 8 where you have to relearn everything from scratch again. It's faster, you have repositories for updates, Firefox runs like a dream on it (on the same hardware I always find the Windows version running way more slowly), and you have great Free Software for most of the uses you need, without viruses, ads and stuff like that. It's VERY functional. Of course some people will bitch about not having Adobe products, or X or Y software, but you can always keep a double boot or a virtual machine if you really need something. Distros get updates automatically, instead of the ancient way of doing updates on Windows with service packs and the like. Since I've switched to Linux years ago I have never looked back, except for games and video editing. And I know I'm not the only one, and I see Linux distros improving release after release.

cwyers 12y ago
Coldpie's posts in this thread seem to suggest that fragmentation is more of an issue than you want to admit here, at least. In terms of drivers... "very close" is not the same as "as good as," much less "better." Which is again the problem here -- in order to supplant a dominant market leader you actually have to do something better. If your drivers are VERY CLOSE to the quality of Windows, for a a subset of the leading manufacturers, and you can get MOST of the big AAA publishers to do ports, and a LOT of the back catalog can run under WINE... do you see what I'm saying? It's playing catch-up, and it's not quite getting to parity, and even parity is unlikely to get significant market share. As for desktop Linux -- that's a whole other kettle of fish, but I think you'll find that most of the people who are ready to switch to Linux on the desktop already have, and as you say are dual-booting for games. Unless something happens there to convince more people that Linux on the desktop is a compelling alternative, then Linux's overall desktop market penetration is probably a pretty good guide to what Linux's share of the gaming PC market could be unless Valve or somebody is able to provide a compelling "better than Windows" experience in at least ONE aspect.