5 ms·

I'm a big fan of vacation policies that lean this way, and have been working at a shop that has a "no vacation policy, policy" for almost four years. That said,

I'm a big fan of vacation policies that lean this way, and have been working at a shop that has a "no vacation policy, policy" for almost four years. That said, I'd echo what I've heard a number of people [1] say about this strategy... that your new challenge is making sure that people take enough time off and don't feel guilty about it. This is the hidden upside to commoditizing PTO, no one sweats using it. It's sort of perceived as a liquidized resource. In an environment without any rules or even vocabulary around time off, it can be a little bit discomforting to take a two week trip or go through with long-weekend plans in a crunch time, etc. That said, I vastly prefer it to the alternative.. Just want to encourage teams that go down this road to not use these vacation policies as an accidental excuse not to pay attention to and discuss time off and whether it's working out for everyone as well as you'd hope or expect! [1] My first exposure to this sentiment: http://www.amazon.com/Up-Organization-Corporation-Stifling-Strangling/dp/0787987751 http://www.amazon.com/Up-Organization-Corporation-Stifling-S... [Edit - Just feel the need to plug harder - Seriously, go read Townsend's book. Published in 1970 and it (unfortunately) still reads incredibly forward thinking. It's basically Rework , written 35 years ago (with only respect to JF and DHH, I really enjoyed Rework as well).]

beat 12y ago
Indeed. I was talking to my lawyer about having a no vacation policy policy, and he said I would need to set a mandatory minimum vacation, and make sure employees take a certain number of days off. His case in point example was me. He pointed out that I work all the time and never take proper vacations (I just had my first one in over two years, and even that was half devoted to a startup conference).
- famousactress 12y ago
  Please don't take this the wrong way, but until we stop humblebragging about not taking vacation the problem of equating hours to output won't go away. Not that it's even intentional, it's just the cultural norm lately to give lip service to the idea that overworking is a bad thing but I don't see evidence that most of us mean it... it's all "Gosh, I'm the worst, I never take time off."
  - Touche 12y ago
    I didn't take the comment as bragging. At least I hope it wasn't meant that way. If the boss doesn't take vacations it makes the employees feel like they shouldn't take (many) either.
    - beat 12y ago
      Exactly. I realize that as the founder/CEO, I set an example for employees. I don't want it to be a bad example. And this is a problem in part because crazed workaholic is kind of wrapped up with the founder mindset, but it's a rotten trait for employees.
  - rayiner 12y ago
    I once spoke to a department head at a D.C. law firm known for its aggressive trial work. He mentioned he took his four weeks every year, including the whole time he was an associate. This is the kind of humble-brag I like to see. "I took my four weeks every year and still {got promoted, got funded, hit profitability, etc}."
  - beat 12y ago
    I consider my lack of vacationing to be a serious problem, something I need to change. Frankly, one of the causes is that my wife and I don't vacation well together. We want different things from vacations. She travels a lot more than I do. And part of it is a couple of years of contracting, when I feel guilty for not getting paid if I'm not working, even though it's theoretically rolled into my rate.
    - JoeAltmaier 12y ago
      Add another column to your life ledger: satisfaction. If you're not getting the time with your spouse you should, then that column would show it. Personally I value my time with family at about 2X my rack rate. So I resent work interfering with my vacation and not the other way around.
      - beat 12y ago
- bane 12y ago
  Absolutely this is the answer. The way this is normally handled is that vacation time accrues, then some portion of it rolls-over in the next working year. But there's a roll-over cap and expiration on those vacation hours (usually mid-summer or similar). And those rolled-over hours aren't eligible for payout if you leave. In most places you can accumulate a tremendous amount of vacation days on your second year there, but you're pressured to use them before the expiration (or before you quit). One place I worked also didn't recognize national holidays, they just gave you 11 extra vacation days in a separate pool. I ended up with something north of 6 weeks of vacation a year there, every year.
chrismcb 12y ago
My previous job was at a startup with three weeks of vacation. The owner said he wanted to do unlimited vacation. But the problem is you have a divide between those who use it vs those who don't use it enough.

beat 12y ago

Indeed. I was talking to my lawyer about having a no vacation policy policy, and he said I would need to set a mandatory minimum vacation, and make sure employees take a certain number of days off. His case in point example was me. He pointed out that I work all the time and never take proper vacations (I just had my first one in over two years, and even that was half devoted to a startup conference).

famousactress 12y ago
Please don't take this the wrong way, but until we stop humblebragging about not taking vacation the problem of equating hours to output won't go away. Not that it's even intentional, it's just the cultural norm lately to give lip service to the idea that overworking is a bad thing but I don't see evidence that most of us mean it... it's all "Gosh, I'm the worst, I never take time off."
- Touche 12y ago
  I didn't take the comment as bragging. At least I hope it wasn't meant that way. If the boss doesn't take vacations it makes the employees feel like they shouldn't take (many) either.
  - beat 12y ago
    Exactly. I realize that as the founder/CEO, I set an example for employees. I don't want it to be a bad example. And this is a problem in part because crazed workaholic is kind of wrapped up with the founder mindset, but it's a rotten trait for employees.
- rayiner 12y ago
  I once spoke to a department head at a D.C. law firm known for its aggressive trial work. He mentioned he took his four weeks every year, including the whole time he was an associate. This is the kind of humble-brag I like to see. "I took my four weeks every year and still {got promoted, got funded, hit profitability, etc}."
- beat 12y ago
  I consider my lack of vacationing to be a serious problem, something I need to change. Frankly, one of the causes is that my wife and I don't vacation well together. We want different things from vacations. She travels a lot more than I do. And part of it is a couple of years of contracting, when I feel guilty for not getting paid if I'm not working, even though it's theoretically rolled into my rate.
  - JoeAltmaier 12y ago
    Add another column to your life ledger: satisfaction. If you're not getting the time with your spouse you should, then that column would show it. Personally I value my time with family at about 2X my rack rate. So I resent work interfering with my vacation and not the other way around.
    - beat 12y ago
bane 12y ago
Absolutely this is the answer. The way this is normally handled is that vacation time accrues, then some portion of it rolls-over in the next working year. But there's a roll-over cap and expiration on those vacation hours (usually mid-summer or similar). And those rolled-over hours aren't eligible for payout if you leave. In most places you can accumulate a tremendous amount of vacation days on your second year there, but you're pressured to use them before the expiration (or before you quit). One place I worked also didn't recognize national holidays, they just gave you 11 extra vacation days in a separate pool. I ended up with something north of 6 weeks of vacation a year there, every year.

chrismcb 12y ago

My previous job was at a startup with three weeks of vacation. The owner said he wanted to do unlimited vacation. But the problem is you have a divide between those who use it vs those who don't use it enough.