4 ms·

I think you may be aiming for a level of safety, or perhaps a notion of "perfection", that isn't practically obtainable. The recent, and rather disruptive, box

by Pacabel 12y ago

I think you may be aiming for a level of safety, or perhaps a notion of "perfection", that isn't practically obtainable. The recent, and rather disruptive, box changes are a good example of this. We see change, and those of us with existing Rust code sure do feel the change, but very little convergence seems to be happening. Based on past trends, I would not be at all surprised if problems are found with the new approach as it becomes more widely used, and some other approach is then attempted. Wheel-spinning is something that can quite easily happen with ambitious software projects. It's not a new phenomenon. But when facing ever-increasing competition, and other real-world constraints, it's often better to aim slightly lower and at least be mostly usable in practice. A memory-safe programming language that can't actually be used is pretty much irrelevant. It's better to accept some slight amount of imperfection if that means it can actually be used.

pcwalton 12y ago
> I think you may be aiming for a level of safety, or perhaps a notion of "perfection", that isn't practically obtainable. I believe it is, as the basic structure and rules of the borrow check (which is the part of Rust that's truly unique) have proven themselves to be quite usable. The usability problems remaining are implementation and precision (e.g. issue #6393), not big problems that will require large redesigns. > The recent, and rather disruptive, box changes are a good example of this. We see change, and those of us with existing Rust code sure do feel the change, but very little convergence seems to be happening. Yes, it is. The number of outstanding backwards incompatible language changes is decreasing. People who do Rust upgrades notice how the language is changing less and less. > A memory-safe programming language that can't actually be used is pretty much irrelevant. It's better to accept some slight amount of imperfection if that means it can actually be used. "Some slight amount of imperfection" means not memory-safe. Java didn't settle for that, C# didn't settle for that, Swift isn't settling for that, and we aren't settling for it.
girvo 12y ago
This is an honest question: Why do you seem to care so much? Rust is in my view a great project, that yes isn't quite there yet but is making great progress. I'm looking forward to using it when it is stable, and pcwalton and the other contributors are developers that I've looked up to for a number of years: I have nothing but faith in them. At the end of the day, if Rust fails, well that will be a shame. But I'm seeing nothing that shows that it might, so I'm truly struggling to understand why you seem so upset by a new modern language trying to tackle big problems in ways that have never been done before. That's a good thing, as far as I'm concerned.
- Pacabel 12y ago
  Having been in industry for a long time, I think that something like Rust would be hugely beneficial. It very well could solve some very real problems. I bring this up again and again because I'd rather not see Rust fail. I'd much rather see a slightly flawed Rust that's actually usable in the short term, rather than a continually changing Rust that nobody will seriously adopt. Rust has been in development for years now. That's a very long time in the software industry. A few years of development time without a stable release is understandable. But it's getting beyond that now. Rust isn't quite there yet, but each day it edges closer to a Perl 6 type of disaster. Perl 6 offered some intriguing ideas, but it just isn't usable, and that's a shame. Meanwhile, other competitors have arisen and blown past it, rendering it far less useful were it ever properly implemented. Given the increasingly stiff competition that Rust is facing, I suspect we'll see it end up like Haskell or D. Something usable is eventually produced, but it never sees the truly widespread adoption that it could have seen, had it been usable earlier on. It's not as bad as Perl 6's situation, but it is still unfortunate.
  - nnethercote 12y ago
    > Given the increasingly stiff competition that Rust is facing, I suspect we'll see it end up like Haskell or D. Something usable is eventually produced, but it never sees the truly widespread adoption that it could have seen, had it been usable earlier on. I don't have much to say about D, but the history of Haskell implied by this sentence is hilariously wrong. Go watch Simon Peyton Jones' talk about the history of Haskell: http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/simonpj/papers/history-of-haskell/index.htm http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/simonpj/papers.... As well as being wonderfully entertaining, it explains the actual history of Haskell: it was designed to be a language with which various academic groups could do functional programming language research. The fact that Haskell has gradually grown more popular and now has mainstream appeal and some industrial users is quite a surprise to its creators.
  - TheHydroImpulse 12y ago
    > Rust has been in development for years now. That's a very long time in the software industry. A few years of development time without a stable release is understandable. But it's getting beyond that now. Not for programming languages. These take years and years. Take a stab at any of the most popular languages. They weren't created 1-3 years ago. It takes time, and that's a good thing.

by Pacabel 12y ago

pcwalton 12y ago

> I think you may be aiming for a level of safety, or perhaps a notion of "perfection", that isn't practically obtainable. I believe it is, as the basic structure and rules of the borrow check (which is the part of Rust that's truly unique) have proven themselves to be quite usable. The usability problems remaining are implementation and precision (e.g. issue #6393), not big problems that will require large redesigns. > The recent, and rather disruptive, box changes are a good example of this. We see change, and those of us with existing Rust code sure do feel the change, but very little convergence seems to be happening. Yes, it is. The number of outstanding backwards incompatible language changes is decreasing. People who do Rust upgrades notice how the language is changing less and less. > A memory-safe programming language that can't actually be used is pretty much irrelevant. It's better to accept some slight amount of imperfection if that means it can actually be used. "Some slight amount of imperfection" means not memory-safe. Java didn't settle for that, C# didn't settle for that, Swift isn't settling for that, and we aren't settling for it.

girvo 12y ago

This is an honest question: Why do you seem to care so much? Rust is in my view a great project, that yes isn't quite there yet but is making great progress. I'm looking forward to using it when it is stable, and pcwalton and the other contributors are developers that I've looked up to for a number of years: I have nothing but faith in them. At the end of the day, if Rust fails, well that will be a shame. But I'm seeing nothing that shows that it might, so I'm truly struggling to understand why you seem so upset by a new modern language trying to tackle big problems in ways that have never been done before. That's a good thing, as far as I'm concerned.

Pacabel 12y ago
Having been in industry for a long time, I think that something like Rust would be hugely beneficial. It very well could solve some very real problems. I bring this up again and again because I'd rather not see Rust fail. I'd much rather see a slightly flawed Rust that's actually usable in the short term, rather than a continually changing Rust that nobody will seriously adopt. Rust has been in development for years now. That's a very long time in the software industry. A few years of development time without a stable release is understandable. But it's getting beyond that now. Rust isn't quite there yet, but each day it edges closer to a Perl 6 type of disaster. Perl 6 offered some intriguing ideas, but it just isn't usable, and that's a shame. Meanwhile, other competitors have arisen and blown past it, rendering it far less useful were it ever properly implemented. Given the increasingly stiff competition that Rust is facing, I suspect we'll see it end up like Haskell or D. Something usable is eventually produced, but it never sees the truly widespread adoption that it could have seen, had it been usable earlier on. It's not as bad as Perl 6's situation, but it is still unfortunate.
- nnethercote 12y ago
  > Given the increasingly stiff competition that Rust is facing, I suspect we'll see it end up like Haskell or D. Something usable is eventually produced, but it never sees the truly widespread adoption that it could have seen, had it been usable earlier on. I don't have much to say about D, but the history of Haskell implied by this sentence is hilariously wrong. Go watch Simon Peyton Jones' talk about the history of Haskell: http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/simonpj/papers/history-of-haskell/index.htm http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/simonpj/papers.... As well as being wonderfully entertaining, it explains the actual history of Haskell: it was designed to be a language with which various academic groups could do functional programming language research. The fact that Haskell has gradually grown more popular and now has mainstream appeal and some industrial users is quite a surprise to its creators.
- TheHydroImpulse 12y ago
  > Rust has been in development for years now. That's a very long time in the software industry. A few years of development time without a stable release is understandable. But it's getting beyond that now. Not for programming languages. These take years and years. Take a stab at any of the most popular languages. They weren't created 1-3 years ago. It takes time, and that's a good thing.