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[ I should preface this all with a giant In My Humble Opinion. I think that this rule has the potential to be a hack that solves a problem, so I'm arguing for i

by mr_luc 17y ago

[ I should preface this all with a giant In My Humble Opinion. I think that this rule has the potential to be a hack that solves a problem, so I'm arguing for it -- it's not a rule that's been adopted, just something that seems promising to me. This should in no way be construed as criticism of the poster, particularly since web.py is very hackerly. ] Your objection is not only valid, but correct! "A lot of very interesting content would not make the cut." I think that's a feature, not a bug. That's the point of HN! It's Hacker News, not Hacker Stuff. For instance: did someone write an interesting article talking about their experience with actually using web.py, in a way that is likely to be benefit other python hackers? Then that would be news, and it would qualify! And much more so if they were your own experiences. But to inform us of the existence of things that are not new -- no offense, but we could all just noodle around in Wikipedia and post interesting, hackerly content until the sun went cold.

jacquesm 17y ago
From the guidelines: "On-Topic: Anything that good hackers would find interesting. That includes more than hacking and startups. If you had to reduce it to a sentence, the answer might be: anything that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity." I fail to spot the word 'news' in there. Also, and this is as pointed as I'll make this I find it a little disconcerting to see a guy who has posted exactly one 'Ask HN' in approximately three years here tell others what they should / should not post.
- mr_luc 17y ago
  Heh, well, the last bit aside -- obviously, there's certainly nothing wrong with your posting of web.py; the existing guidelines make that clear enough. Which is neither here nor there, as I'm not proposing the rule as a criticism of your actions, but as a proposed answer to a question very like, "Is there a simple social rule that could prevent these kind of collisions from becoming increasingly common as HN grows?" I think that the rule I propose has merit as an idea, so I'm arguing for it, not criticizing your actions. ;)
  - jacquesm 17y ago
    Fair enough, but then you probably should pick your words with a bit more care. As for the rule, I think it is a bad one. The simplest solution would be a technical one: If a user has not seen a url because it was posted before that user became a member then he/she will see it, otherwise it gets rendered invisible. That way you get to have your cake and I can eat mine too.
mikeryan 17y ago
Okay so first, web.py is sort of old news. That being said, shouldn't the inherent nature of HN filter "old news" itself? If 14 people (at this time) found this link interesting enough to up vote then who are we to say its not newsworthy? The slope gets a bit slippery. The other day someone posted a link to the Sinatra framework, which I've heard of but never looked at until it it made the front page here. I think the democratic nature of HN should do the filtering for us. and _that_ being said I'd still like a downvote button ;-) (and why are you being downvoted? is this too meta HN? I'm not sure where else to discuss these topics)
- mr_luc 17y ago
  Right, the democratic component (and inability to do digg-style burying that results) is what makes the news on these kinds of sites better than other options. The danger, of course, is: how is HN different from reddit.com/r/programming ? How does it stay different? I think it's clear that we would want it to retain a distinctive flavor, but it seems almost inevitable that it would morph into proggit -- unless, perhaps, pg made the user interface purposely difficult. ;) Suggested solutions are sometimes code, sometimes convention. Code: longer time limits on deeply nested conversations. Like this one. Convention: no blog spam wrapping other people's content. (Filters fail here because it's worth a human's time to write just enough almost-relevant 'content' to surround a link, so humans are essential). Different communities can adopt different conventions, and those can shape and inform the voting going forward -- which may be one of the only things that let different democratic news sites retain their distinctive characteristics. So, meh. Heh, it was just an idea. /grumble
derefr 17y ago
But people still like to read this stuff (and vote it up), because some subset will always be discovering it, and it gives the rest of us a chance to talk about it as a community. That said, you're right: it isn't news, and so it doesn't quite belong here. "Hacker Stuff" would make a great sister site, though. Same community (shared login), but rather than a steady, chronological influx, it would be a (categorized?) list of "the most interesting-to-hackers stuff of all time," with comment threads to discuss it. I imagine it's also where perennial topics of discussion, such as "Music to hack to" would migrate.
- mr_luc 17y ago
  Someone suggested a Hacker Canon during the spate of "hey, Arduino exists" threads.

by mr_luc 17y ago

jacquesm 17y ago

From the guidelines: "On-Topic: Anything that good hackers would find interesting. That includes more than hacking and startups. If you had to reduce it to a sentence, the answer might be: anything that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity." I fail to spot the word 'news' in there. Also, and this is as pointed as I'll make this I find it a little disconcerting to see a guy who has posted exactly one 'Ask HN' in approximately three years here tell others what they should / should not post.

mr_luc 17y ago
Heh, well, the last bit aside -- obviously, there's certainly nothing wrong with your posting of web.py; the existing guidelines make that clear enough. Which is neither here nor there, as I'm not proposing the rule as a criticism of your actions, but as a proposed answer to a question very like, "Is there a simple social rule that could prevent these kind of collisions from becoming increasingly common as HN grows?" I think that the rule I propose has merit as an idea, so I'm arguing for it, not criticizing your actions. ;)
- jacquesm 17y ago
  Fair enough, but then you probably should pick your words with a bit more care. As for the rule, I think it is a bad one. The simplest solution would be a technical one: If a user has not seen a url because it was posted before that user became a member then he/she will see it, otherwise it gets rendered invisible. That way you get to have your cake and I can eat mine too.

mikeryan 17y ago

Okay so first, web.py is sort of old news. That being said, shouldn't the inherent nature of HN filter "old news" itself? If 14 people (at this time) found this link interesting enough to up vote then who are we to say its not newsworthy? The slope gets a bit slippery. The other day someone posted a link to the Sinatra framework, which I've heard of but never looked at until it it made the front page here. I think the democratic nature of HN should do the filtering for us. and _that_ being said I'd still like a downvote button ;-) (and why are you being downvoted? is this too meta HN? I'm not sure where else to discuss these topics)

mr_luc 17y ago
Right, the democratic component (and inability to do digg-style burying that results) is what makes the news on these kinds of sites better than other options. The danger, of course, is: how is HN different from reddit.com/r/programming ? How does it stay different? I think it's clear that we would want it to retain a distinctive flavor, but it seems almost inevitable that it would morph into proggit -- unless, perhaps, pg made the user interface purposely difficult. ;) Suggested solutions are sometimes code, sometimes convention. Code: longer time limits on deeply nested conversations. Like this one. Convention: no blog spam wrapping other people's content. (Filters fail here because it's worth a human's time to write just enough almost-relevant 'content' to surround a link, so humans are essential). Different communities can adopt different conventions, and those can shape and inform the voting going forward -- which may be one of the only things that let different democratic news sites retain their distinctive characteristics. So, meh. Heh, it was just an idea. /grumble

derefr 17y ago

But people still like to read this stuff (and vote it up), because some subset will always be discovering it, and it gives the rest of us a chance to talk about it as a community. That said, you're right: it isn't news, and so it doesn't quite belong here. "Hacker Stuff" would make a great sister site, though. Same community (shared login), but rather than a steady, chronological influx, it would be a (categorized?) list of "the most interesting-to-hackers stuff of all time," with comment threads to discuss it. I imagine it's also where perennial topics of discussion, such as "Music to hack to" would migrate.

mr_luc 17y ago
Someone suggested a Hacker Canon during the spate of "hey, Arduino exists" threads.