3 ms·

How does this compare to pumped-storage hydroelectric plants? Those usually have a conversion efficiency of 70-85% and can deliver serious capacity/power. I gu

by ginko 12y ago

How does this compare to pumped-storage hydroelectric plants? Those usually have a conversion efficiency of 70-85% and can deliver serious capacity/power. I guess good places for solar and mountains aren't always close together.

twic 12y ago
Presumably you can also implement a pumped storage system with a massive hole in the ground, using that and the surface as the two levels. A use for old mines, maybe? Or maybe even for those persistent mine fires that were posted today. Two birds with one stone. Prior art, of a sort: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Peigneur http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Peigneur
- maxerickson 12y ago
  The pumped storage plant in Ludington, Michigan doesn't have a whole lot of head, 363 feet. It's basically just an artificial reservoir at the top of a hill by Lake Michigan. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludington_Pumped_Storage_Power_Plant http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludington_Pumped_Storage_Power_...
afarrell 12y ago
the problem with a pumped-storage plant is that it is not nearly as responsive to changes in demand as a natural gas turbine. context: On the bulk electricity market, each topological region has a set amount of megawatt demand and suppliers bid in supply curves. A nuclear plant and a hydro plant (including pumped-storage) thats already running will bid negative in order to ensure that they get scheduled and don't have to shut down. A coal plant will bid slightly positive, and a natural gas plant will bid high. The linear programming problem that schedules these plants will start with the low-cost megawatts and work its way up in price until it fills its demand. The price of the last megawatt to get scheduled is applied to the whole market so the nuclear plant gets paid the price of a natural gas plant. Natural gas plants also provide another product called "regulation". That is, providing power at a certain level but being able to ramp up or down quickly in real time to keep the whole system operating close enough to 60Hz. It looks like these batteries are going to be at least comparable to natural gas turbines, so they'll be able to be take over some of the role of the marginal watt and provide some regulation.

by ginko 12y ago

twic 12y ago

Presumably you can also implement a pumped storage system with a massive hole in the ground, using that and the surface as the two levels. A use for old mines, maybe? Or maybe even for those persistent mine fires that were posted today. Two birds with one stone. Prior art, of a sort: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Peigneur http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Peigneur

maxerickson 12y ago
The pumped storage plant in Ludington, Michigan doesn't have a whole lot of head, 363 feet. It's basically just an artificial reservoir at the top of a hill by Lake Michigan. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludington_Pumped_Storage_Power_Plant http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludington_Pumped_Storage_Power_...

afarrell 12y ago

the problem with a pumped-storage plant is that it is not nearly as responsive to changes in demand as a natural gas turbine. context: On the bulk electricity market, each topological region has a set amount of megawatt demand and suppliers bid in supply curves. A nuclear plant and a hydro plant (including pumped-storage) thats already running will bid negative in order to ensure that they get scheduled and don't have to shut down. A coal plant will bid slightly positive, and a natural gas plant will bid high. The linear programming problem that schedules these plants will start with the low-cost megawatts and work its way up in price until it fills its demand. The price of the last megawatt to get scheduled is applied to the whole market so the nuclear plant gets paid the price of a natural gas plant. Natural gas plants also provide another product called "regulation". That is, providing power at a certain level but being able to ramp up or down quickly in real time to keep the whole system operating close enough to 60Hz. It looks like these batteries are going to be at least comparable to natural gas turbines, so they'll be able to be take over some of the role of the marginal watt and provide some regulation.