4 ms·

> low-ball offers are the name of the game in Berlin, selling a dream of a bright future with no equity. I was flown to Berlin to be interviewed twice. Once by

by monksy 12y ago

> low-ball offers are the name of the game in Berlin, selling a dream of a bright future with no equity. I was flown to Berlin to be interviewed twice. Once by a startup and another by a large organization that had the funds. I've got to agree with this. One of the big reasons that Berlin/Germany has the difficulty with getting talent that they do is that they actively try to undercut the market. They won't compete with the American IT/Dev market. The offer I got was 38k Euro/year while making $60k US. (Also.. remember German taxes for being "non-religious" and single are ~42%) Another thing to note (from my experience)... They won't even consider you if you don't have a masters degree.

thejdude 12y ago
38k€ is I'd say an entry-level wage in Germany (in cities; less in rural areas, more in places like Munich). The maximum marginal tax rate is 42% in Germany. As a developer, you'll very like pay only 25% of your income as taxes (but add health "insurance" and mandatory payments into the pension fund etc., so you'll end up with half your salary gone). The master's degree thing is pretty much true. While there are non-studied professionals and you can get a job with a non-college education, I think most interesting jobs are only available to graduates.
- raverbashing 12y ago
  I know plenty of people that got in without a Masters in Berlin, so YMMV 38k€ is low, it's possible to get more (but then, with the taxes and everything this translates to maybe 3k€ per month tops - with a very high salary)
  - thejdude 12y ago
    Um yes, but 3k is also a veery comfortable salary to live on in Germany. 90+% of the population don't even make 2k (net salary), IIRC. I think with 50k gross per year (or was it even 40k?) you're already "upper class" in a sense.
    - raverbashing 12y ago
      You are correct
- monksy 12y ago
  Foreign firms wouldn't even acknowledge my resume without the masters on it. 38k was from a well known startup that was backed by a well known FB related VC firm.
bitL 12y ago
As a senior developer you can get 75k fixed + 10k variable even in some of Berlin's start-ups, however you might get that easily in Hamburg, Munich, Ingolstadt or Frankfurt. In Munich and Frankfurt you can get 110k + about the same variable if you work for one of the trading/ad companies (and have a stomach for it). The housing prices in Berlin are skyrocketing, approaching the other big German cities fast, so basically with 38k you would be quite close to poverty level if you have a family (though "poverty" in Germany is much gentler than in the US due to a lot of social support and welfare from the government, paid by high taxes).
- monksy 12y ago
  This was about 2011 when I got that offer. The housing prices were jumping up. The founder attempted to hedge my shock at the 38k e a year by claiming "housing is cheap." Nice try, I believe that he was talking about a wohingemeinung [sp], which I'm not doing if I'm relocating to Berlin. Also, they wouldn't offer a relo either. BTW My tax percentage was take home pay. [Mandatory health payment is included since it's mandatory]
- thejdude 12y ago
  Mind if I ask where you can get, say, 75k in Germany? I have >5 years experience, I'm consistently rated great by my bosses, but I have a hard time getting paid a good salary for it. Job offers are only by body-leasing companies, whereever I look (i.e. no "intern" positions). Is it only the really big players that pay 75k, where you have to deal with rigid corporate politics, suit-up dress code, and meetings instead of developing/architecting stuff? (Basically what I've been doing for years, but with low pay, and I don't really want to keep doing that; it hurts productivity, and it wastes my talent.) West-german city we're talking about, so location shouldn't be the problem.

by monksy 12y ago

thejdude 12y ago

38k€ is I'd say an entry-level wage in Germany (in cities; less in rural areas, more in places like Munich). The maximum marginal tax rate is 42% in Germany. As a developer, you'll very like pay only 25% of your income as taxes (but add health "insurance" and mandatory payments into the pension fund etc., so you'll end up with half your salary gone). The master's degree thing is pretty much true. While there are non-studied professionals and you can get a job with a non-college education, I think most interesting jobs are only available to graduates.

raverbashing 12y ago
I know plenty of people that got in without a Masters in Berlin, so YMMV 38k€ is low, it's possible to get more (but then, with the taxes and everything this translates to maybe 3k€ per month tops - with a very high salary)
- thejdude 12y ago
  Um yes, but 3k is also a veery comfortable salary to live on in Germany. 90+% of the population don't even make 2k (net salary), IIRC. I think with 50k gross per year (or was it even 40k?) you're already "upper class" in a sense.
  - raverbashing 12y ago
    You are correct
monksy 12y ago
Foreign firms wouldn't even acknowledge my resume without the masters on it. 38k was from a well known startup that was backed by a well known FB related VC firm.

bitL 12y ago

As a senior developer you can get 75k fixed + 10k variable even in some of Berlin's start-ups, however you might get that easily in Hamburg, Munich, Ingolstadt or Frankfurt. In Munich and Frankfurt you can get 110k + about the same variable if you work for one of the trading/ad companies (and have a stomach for it). The housing prices in Berlin are skyrocketing, approaching the other big German cities fast, so basically with 38k you would be quite close to poverty level if you have a family (though "poverty" in Germany is much gentler than in the US due to a lot of social support and welfare from the government, paid by high taxes).

monksy 12y ago
This was about 2011 when I got that offer. The housing prices were jumping up. The founder attempted to hedge my shock at the 38k e a year by claiming "housing is cheap." Nice try, I believe that he was talking about a wohingemeinung [sp], which I'm not doing if I'm relocating to Berlin. Also, they wouldn't offer a relo either. BTW My tax percentage was take home pay. [Mandatory health payment is included since it's mandatory]
thejdude 12y ago
Mind if I ask where you can get, say, 75k in Germany? I have >5 years experience, I'm consistently rated great by my bosses, but I have a hard time getting paid a good salary for it. Job offers are only by body-leasing companies, whereever I look (i.e. no "intern" positions). Is it only the really big players that pay 75k, where you have to deal with rigid corporate politics, suit-up dress code, and meetings instead of developing/architecting stuff? (Basically what I've been doing for years, but with low pay, and I don't really want to keep doing that; it hurts productivity, and it wastes my talent.) West-german city we're talking about, so location shouldn't be the problem.