4 ms·

Why? I hate advertising, and believe it's gotten way way way too pervasive in all aspects of modern life, but I still wouldn't even say it's inherently evil.

Infinitesimus 12y ago
I think one 'problem' is that advertising's goal is to manipulate and condition the human mind to desire a product. Of course, there is a very blurred line (if any at all) between "informing" someone of a product and using subtle psychological tricks to make them desire the product. Idk, complex grey area for me which I find fascinating yet somehow conflicted about.
- mseebach 12y ago
  The problem with that analysis is that damn near all human communication uses "subtle psychological tricks" to achieve ends, good, bad and neutral. When advertising gets called out specifically in that context, it's a consequence of the ancient snobbery towards commerce, pioneered by the aristocracy and improbably adopted by the academia. http://www.economist.com/node/21541857 http://www.economist.com/node/21541857
  - tomp 12y ago
    That is correct, which is why I never trust communication done by someone who has an incentive to draw a profit from it.
    - mseebach 12y ago
      That's the point. You don't trust anything, commercial or not, by default, you use your critical faculties and evaluate the information available to you to reach a conclusion. As such, advertising isn't special, and isn't inherently evil anymore than any other type of communication.
    - jpadkins 12y ago
      Can you give an example of communication that does not have an incentive to profit?
      - tomp 12y ago
        My comment above. I assume yours as well. Most of the internet, actually (e.g. HN, Reddit, ...) - the owners of the website might benefit (pageviews & ads), but not the most often anonymous posters. (Of course, there are exceptions, and any post on the internet should go through a bullshit sensor, but it's a different bullshit sensor than when someone is trying to sell you something.
        mseebach 12y ago
        Not profit in a strict monetary sense, but you benefit in various direct and indirect ways from advancing your worldview and challenging mine. I see the focus on monetary profit as somehow 'dirty' at the expense of the myriad other ways people benefit from interactions as a further symptom of the snobbery described in the link I posted.
        jpadkins 12y ago
        my communication was a challenge to you, to promote my worldview (laissez faire free market) to the 3rd party readers of our exchange. Since my skills, knowledge, are heavily intertwined with this worldview, my value goes up when people sway to this worldview. So in pushing this agenda, I profit. Let's say our posts were purely entertainment value only. I still profit because I am entertaining myself for cheaper than the alternatives, saving money, and therefor profiting. Usually we call people who take action that don't benefit themselves crazy or self-destructive.
        tomp 12y ago
        I totally agree that all communication has a goal/motive; I was referring specifically to advertising/for-monetary-profit communication, mainly because such communication in itself is an indication that the originating party is driven by profit (they are willing to lose money for the chance of convincing you), not by altruism (such as e.g. reading these comments on HN or reading fitness advice on reddit). This also the problem with paid advice (lawyers, fitness trainers, therapists, ...), as the incentives are rarely aligned - the better the service (faster resolution of the problem), the more the customer benefits, and the less the seller earns. Hence, sellers are incentivized to not offer perfect service. Of course, market efficiency is high enough that those who offer really bad service (solve the problems too slowly or not at all) will get a bad reputation, but it's reasonable to believe that the optimum for each individual seller (and hence for the market itself) is less-than-perfect-service offered to customers. This is obvious even in fields that are highly regulated, e.g. medicine: most drug research is targeted to managing long-term diseases (HIV, cancer), so that the customer stays a customer as long as possible; one-shot medicine (e.g. for snake bites) are "priced out". It's even worse in politics; politicians can promise anything, get elected, do the opposite, and blame the opposition. On the other hand, the incentives online are different. There is no money, only reputation, good feelings (altruism) and lulz. Therefore, you need a "bullshit-test" to filter out the trolls (e.g. upvoting, reputable peer-reviewed blogs), but if you do that successfully, the incentives of producers and consumers of information are aligned. Finally, this is only my thinking and analysis of the state of the world; I might be wrong, and I encourage you to point out any errors in my thinking and change my mind.
  - Infinitesimus 12y ago
    I agree with you (still reading the article by the way). That's why I consider it a grey area because we all have various goals that drive several action. In some way, we 'profit'. I suppose the problem easily becomes an ethical/moral (loosely defined) issue where one has to decide on where lines are drawn - if any at all. Is the monetary profit from advertising that different from the emotional/mental profit from donating to a charity? If so, where do we make the distinction? Clearly, an action to achieve a specific end (good, bad or neutral) doesn't cut it.

Infinitesimus 12y ago

I think one 'problem' is that advertising's goal is to manipulate and condition the human mind to desire a product. Of course, there is a very blurred line (if any at all) between "informing" someone of a product and using subtle psychological tricks to make them desire the product. Idk, complex grey area for me which I find fascinating yet somehow conflicted about.

mseebach 12y ago
The problem with that analysis is that damn near all human communication uses "subtle psychological tricks" to achieve ends, good, bad and neutral. When advertising gets called out specifically in that context, it's a consequence of the ancient snobbery towards commerce, pioneered by the aristocracy and improbably adopted by the academia. http://www.economist.com/node/21541857 http://www.economist.com/node/21541857
- tomp 12y ago
  That is correct, which is why I never trust communication done by someone who has an incentive to draw a profit from it.
  - mseebach 12y ago
    That's the point. You don't trust anything, commercial or not, by default, you use your critical faculties and evaluate the information available to you to reach a conclusion. As such, advertising isn't special, and isn't inherently evil anymore than any other type of communication.
  - jpadkins 12y ago
    Can you give an example of communication that does not have an incentive to profit?
    - tomp 12y ago
      My comment above. I assume yours as well. Most of the internet, actually (e.g. HN, Reddit, ...) - the owners of the website might benefit (pageviews & ads), but not the most often anonymous posters. (Of course, there are exceptions, and any post on the internet should go through a bullshit sensor, but it's a different bullshit sensor than when someone is trying to sell you something.
      - mseebach 12y ago
        Not profit in a strict monetary sense, but you benefit in various direct and indirect ways from advancing your worldview and challenging mine. I see the focus on monetary profit as somehow 'dirty' at the expense of the myriad other ways people benefit from interactions as a further symptom of the snobbery described in the link I posted.
      - jpadkins 12y ago
        my communication was a challenge to you, to promote my worldview (laissez faire free market) to the 3rd party readers of our exchange. Since my skills, knowledge, are heavily intertwined with this worldview, my value goes up when people sway to this worldview. So in pushing this agenda, I profit. Let's say our posts were purely entertainment value only. I still profit because I am entertaining myself for cheaper than the alternatives, saving money, and therefor profiting. Usually we call people who take action that don't benefit themselves crazy or self-destructive.
        tomp 12y ago
        I totally agree that all communication has a goal/motive; I was referring specifically to advertising/for-monetary-profit communication, mainly because such communication in itself is an indication that the originating party is driven by profit (they are willing to lose money for the chance of convincing you), not by altruism (such as e.g. reading these comments on HN or reading fitness advice on reddit). This also the problem with paid advice (lawyers, fitness trainers, therapists, ...), as the incentives are rarely aligned - the better the service (faster resolution of the problem), the more the customer benefits, and the less the seller earns. Hence, sellers are incentivized to not offer perfect service. Of course, market efficiency is high enough that those who offer really bad service (solve the problems too slowly or not at all) will get a bad reputation, but it's reasonable to believe that the optimum for each individual seller (and hence for the market itself) is less-than-perfect-service offered to customers. This is obvious even in fields that are highly regulated, e.g. medicine: most drug research is targeted to managing long-term diseases (HIV, cancer), so that the customer stays a customer as long as possible; one-shot medicine (e.g. for snake bites) are "priced out". It's even worse in politics; politicians can promise anything, get elected, do the opposite, and blame the opposition. On the other hand, the incentives online are different. There is no money, only reputation, good feelings (altruism) and lulz. Therefore, you need a "bullshit-test" to filter out the trolls (e.g. upvoting, reputable peer-reviewed blogs), but if you do that successfully, the incentives of producers and consumers of information are aligned. Finally, this is only my thinking and analysis of the state of the world; I might be wrong, and I encourage you to point out any errors in my thinking and change my mind.
- Infinitesimus 12y ago
  I agree with you (still reading the article by the way). That's why I consider it a grey area because we all have various goals that drive several action. In some way, we 'profit'. I suppose the problem easily becomes an ethical/moral (loosely defined) issue where one has to decide on where lines are drawn - if any at all. Is the monetary profit from advertising that different from the emotional/mental profit from donating to a charity? If so, where do we make the distinction? Clearly, an action to achieve a specific end (good, bad or neutral) doesn't cut it.