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Another reminder of the dangers of religion. I believe one day people will look back on us with the same horror for preventing gay marriage, premarital sex, et

Another reminder of the dangers of religion. I believe one day people will look back on us with the same horror for preventing gay marriage, premarital sex, etc., as we do the past for things like human sacrifice.

UweSchmidt 12y ago
"Future people will agree with me." We probably do not currently look back with horror to the things that those people from old Kent thought we'd look back in horror to. Instead we judge these people according to our current standards, just as future people will judge us to their standards, which we would probably find quite revolting if we could grasp them at all.
- trevmckendrick 12y ago
  Pg said it better than I can: http://www.paulgraham.com/say.html http://www.paulgraham.com/say.html
  - nl 12y ago
    I downvoted you for a number of reasons, none of which are what PG are talking about. Basically, I think your comment lacked perspective. All cultures have taboos and rites. It is extremely difficult to predict how they will change in the future. For example, the ancient Greeks had no taboo against homosexuality (indeed, it was considered normal), but they also had nothing against keeping slaves. The US as a nation has no taboo against advertising to children, and yet attitudes to homosexuality vary dramatically by region. Extreme violence in films is considered taboo in most cultures, and yet entertaining in the US. Racism is publicly decried in the US, and yet remains ingrained in some other countries. Eating dogs is taboo in the US, not in other countries. Bacon is considered a delicacy in the US, and taboo in many countries. Sometimes religion is the carrier of some of these taboos and rites, and sometimes it is not. Sometimes religion innoculates a culture against a particular practice (eg, Halal means alcoholism isn't a big problem in Muslim countries), and other times it is used to both justify it and to fight it (eg the changing Christian attitude to Slavery). I suspect you'd be better off justifying your post rather than complaining about persecution of downvotes.
    - trevmckendrick 12y ago
      Thanks for the detailed response(s). I also "justified" my post in another comment (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7832128 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7832128) but I'll repeat myself for you, too. "Sometimes religion is the carrier of some of these taboos and rites, and sometimes it is not." Agreed. But my original post simply said this was a reminder of the "dangers of religion." And this specific example demonstrates that well. Religious beliefs were used to justify human sacrifice, despite murder being a "taboo that is shared by many cultures", as you well put it.
swayvil 12y ago
The men of the future will probably view our modern scientific views of reality with the same disdain. And maybe these human sacrifice rituals had some utility. Just sayin, let's try to see beyond the conventions of the moment.
jlansey 12y ago
no need to look back in horror - the Chibok kidnapping for example happened a few weeks ago; for religious reasons. "preventing" premarital sex and even banning gay marriage seem like more of a first world problems when compared with the barbaric crimes that occur with tragic frequency - today.
trevmckendrick 12y ago
Being downvoted for this comment so many times is a small example of PG's essay, "What You Can't Say." http://www.paulgraham.com/say.html http://www.paulgraham.com/say.html
- venus 12y ago
  I think you're being downvoted because your comment was basically offtopic and inflammatory, not because you dared to break some kind of taboo. I'm not at all religious, and your comment annoyed me also for its obviousness and vague smugness. Anyway, there's some schools of thought which consider religion to be a necessary evil for pre-scientific organisation, so I'm sure enlightened future scholars will be studying religion's phases from its medieval heyday through to its current last hurrahs with interest.
  - trevmckendrick 12y ago
    "Your comment was basically offtopic and inflammatory." It was probably a bit offtopic, I"ll give you that. I was raised in a very religious family that has negatively impacted my life in a few ways. I guess I see the damage of religion in more places than most. But inflammatory? I think that's the point of the PG essay I referenced: that just saying something "you can't say" automatically makes it inflammatory. The statement's truth is irrelevant. "Your comment annoyed me also for its obviousness and vague smugness" For someone who has a lot of very religious friends, I don't think this is obvious to many people. I hope I'd have the standard to not write something that is so obvious as to not benefit the majority of my readers.
- nl 12y ago
  I answered this previously, but I think it is ironic you keep posting this. I'll quote for you: We may imagine that we are a great deal smarter and more virtuous than past generations, but the more history you read, the less likely this seems.... I suspect the only taboos that are more than taboos are the ones that are universal, or nearly so. Murder for example. But any idea that's considered harmless in a significant percentage of times and places, and yet is taboo in ours, is a good candidate for something we're mistaken about. To make it clear: thinking particular taboos are caused by religion is shortsighted. These things keep happening over & over again, and unfortunately "progress" isn't always towards something you may like. However, human sacrifice (aka murder) is a taboo that is shared by many cultures. That makes that different to the other things you lists.

UweSchmidt 12y ago

"Future people will agree with me." We probably do not currently look back with horror to the things that those people from old Kent thought we'd look back in horror to. Instead we judge these people according to our current standards, just as future people will judge us to their standards, which we would probably find quite revolting if we could grasp them at all.

trevmckendrick 12y ago
Pg said it better than I can: http://www.paulgraham.com/say.html http://www.paulgraham.com/say.html
- nl 12y ago
  I downvoted you for a number of reasons, none of which are what PG are talking about. Basically, I think your comment lacked perspective. All cultures have taboos and rites. It is extremely difficult to predict how they will change in the future. For example, the ancient Greeks had no taboo against homosexuality (indeed, it was considered normal), but they also had nothing against keeping slaves. The US as a nation has no taboo against advertising to children, and yet attitudes to homosexuality vary dramatically by region. Extreme violence in films is considered taboo in most cultures, and yet entertaining in the US. Racism is publicly decried in the US, and yet remains ingrained in some other countries. Eating dogs is taboo in the US, not in other countries. Bacon is considered a delicacy in the US, and taboo in many countries. Sometimes religion is the carrier of some of these taboos and rites, and sometimes it is not. Sometimes religion innoculates a culture against a particular practice (eg, Halal means alcoholism isn't a big problem in Muslim countries), and other times it is used to both justify it and to fight it (eg the changing Christian attitude to Slavery). I suspect you'd be better off justifying your post rather than complaining about persecution of downvotes.
  - trevmckendrick 12y ago
    Thanks for the detailed response(s). I also "justified" my post in another comment (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7832128 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7832128) but I'll repeat myself for you, too. "Sometimes religion is the carrier of some of these taboos and rites, and sometimes it is not." Agreed. But my original post simply said this was a reminder of the "dangers of religion." And this specific example demonstrates that well. Religious beliefs were used to justify human sacrifice, despite murder being a "taboo that is shared by many cultures", as you well put it.

swayvil 12y ago

The men of the future will probably view our modern scientific views of reality with the same disdain. And maybe these human sacrifice rituals had some utility. Just sayin, let's try to see beyond the conventions of the moment.

jlansey 12y ago

no need to look back in horror - the Chibok kidnapping for example happened a few weeks ago; for religious reasons. "preventing" premarital sex and even banning gay marriage seem like more of a first world problems when compared with the barbaric crimes that occur with tragic frequency - today.

trevmckendrick 12y ago

Being downvoted for this comment so many times is a small example of PG's essay, "What You Can't Say." http://www.paulgraham.com/say.html http://www.paulgraham.com/say.html

venus 12y ago
I think you're being downvoted because your comment was basically offtopic and inflammatory, not because you dared to break some kind of taboo. I'm not at all religious, and your comment annoyed me also for its obviousness and vague smugness. Anyway, there's some schools of thought which consider religion to be a necessary evil for pre-scientific organisation, so I'm sure enlightened future scholars will be studying religion's phases from its medieval heyday through to its current last hurrahs with interest.
- trevmckendrick 12y ago
  "Your comment was basically offtopic and inflammatory." It was probably a bit offtopic, I"ll give you that. I was raised in a very religious family that has negatively impacted my life in a few ways. I guess I see the damage of religion in more places than most. But inflammatory? I think that's the point of the PG essay I referenced: that just saying something "you can't say" automatically makes it inflammatory. The statement's truth is irrelevant. "Your comment annoyed me also for its obviousness and vague smugness" For someone who has a lot of very religious friends, I don't think this is obvious to many people. I hope I'd have the standard to not write something that is so obvious as to not benefit the majority of my readers.
nl 12y ago
I answered this previously, but I think it is ironic you keep posting this. I'll quote for you: We may imagine that we are a great deal smarter and more virtuous than past generations, but the more history you read, the less likely this seems.... I suspect the only taboos that are more than taboos are the ones that are universal, or nearly so. Murder for example. But any idea that's considered harmless in a significant percentage of times and places, and yet is taboo in ours, is a good candidate for something we're mistaken about. To make it clear: thinking particular taboos are caused by religion is shortsighted. These things keep happening over & over again, and unfortunately "progress" isn't always towards something you may like. However, human sacrifice (aka murder) is a taboo that is shared by many cultures. That makes that different to the other things you lists.