7 ms·
Ask HN: FU Money: What is your number?
I'm guessing HN is going to have a lower number than the general population because it's relatively easy to get a new tech job.
But anyways, what is your figure for FU money?
EDIT: I see people are putting down their early retirement number. For some people, "FU Money" is just a year.
- jesusmichael 12y ago$50M... that's 10M in spending cash, 40M in investments, and with a moderate rate of return I'm making $2.5-5M a year for the rest of my life...
- dorongrinstein 12y agoI created the doron FU scale, which like the richter scale is not linear: -2: you must file bankruptcy -1: you may be able to repay your debt 0: you're living paycheck to paycheck 1: you can live for a year without working 2: you can live for the rest of your life without working maintaining the same lifestyle you have now 3: your kids (if any) can live their whole life without having to work 4: you can afford any luxury such as jets and yachts 5: you are in the same league with Gates, Buffet, Ellison, etc. A few notes: You can find where you are on the scale using a decimal fraction between the integers. Just because level 3 says your kids can live without working does not mean you should strive to achieve that. It is simply a measure of wealth, not a desired outcome for obvious reasons. Just because level 4 affords you jets does not mean everyone should aspire to buy a jet. Again it is mentioned as a reference of what you could attain at that level. In America in my view, amassing $5 million gets you to level 2. The figure could be argued and it fully depends on your style and standard of living. So for you it might be significantly less or perhaps much more. This figure assumes a monthly spend of $20K and a paid off house (paid out of the $5m)
- tempestn 12y agoI'm with you up to the last sentence. Agreed that 5m including the house would be enough for level 2, but I don't think it'd reliably afford 20k/month, at least not if you're talking real dollars (which you'd have to to account for maintaining your lifestyle for the remainder of your life). If we assume a $500k house, 20k/month is 240k/year, which is over 5% of your remaining 4.5M. Even at standard retirement age the rule of thumb is a 4% real withdrawal rate, and many people think that's optimistic in this low interest rate environment. Assuming you're relatively young I wouldn't want to go more than 3% real withdrawal rate, ideally less. Fortunately, my family's current lifestyle is nowhere near 20k/month! :) My level 2 number is 3M, not including the paid-off house (which unfortunately is rather more than 500k here...), which should afford 90k/year real (before taxes) at 3% withdrawal rate.
- gfodor 12y agoI'm not following. Tax free munis or corporate bonds throw off a 5-6% tax adjusted yield. You can always plow anything you don't spend back into fixed income to make up for inflation. So unless you are expecting massive inflation you'll be good.
- tempestn 12y agoEven a 5-6% tax-adjusted yield (which seems high, but I'm in Canada so I don't follow US rates too closely) is less than 5% after any inflation. Also corporate and municipal bonds are not without risk, although it's not large with proper diversification. Parent implied the 20k/month was spending money. If you're reinvesting some of that money, then you're effectively reducing your withdrawal rate, in which case I agree. Also if you're willing to reduce your spending in the case of a downturn you could withstand a higher withdrawal rate. I'm just saying that a 5%+ real withdrawal rate is not sustainable indefinitely in a vacuum.
- oofabz 12y ago$2M. I could live off that for the rest of my life if I invested wisely and lived frugally, and I'm pretty good at both. I'd live on a sailboat and work on software that there's absolutely no money in, like DragonflyBSD, Wayland, Enlightenment, Haiku, etc. It would be relaxing and fulfilling to be an artist instead of a capitalist.
- goodcanadian 12y agoYep. $2 million sounds right. I might consider semi-retirement on less, but it would depend on the details. $2 million should be enough that I don't need to worry too much about the details.
- aianus 12y agoWhy can't you do that with $1M?
- DiabloD3 12y ago$25m.
- adinb 12y ago$5 million. I'm a simple man with simple pleasures. ;)
- tdicola 12y agoThat's my number too, with a conservative rate of return you could make $200k a year on interest alone. Probably not enough money to live in crazy expensive areas or go jet-setting around the globe, but certainly enough to do whatever you want.
- yen223 12y ago$500,000 for me. I'm a simple man with simple pleasures living in a simple country ;)
- andreshb 12y agoI don't need a lot of money to do as I please.
- austenallred 12y agoF U money in my mind means "could live comfortably and never have to worry about money again." Depending on age, I estimate $10m (I like to travel)
- aianus 12y agoTraveling is cheaper than living in the US/Canada.
- stephencanon 12y agoThat depends rather a lot on what kind of traveling one wants to do. Posh hotels in major cities? Remote mountains in developing countries?
- MichaelGG 12y agoDepends how and how often you travel. If you're married, two kids, and want to be able to bounce around the world when you please, it's not inconceivable that airfare alone might cost as much as you'd spend on essentials staying put.
- chroman 12y ago$1M. I could live off for the rest of my life with this number here in Mexico. Simpler life, side on projects, maybe doing open source, not worring too much about the money.
- elviejo 12y agoWhere in Mexico are you?
- javert 12y agoWhere in Mexico would you recommend? And is this for someone who speaks Spanish, or a true gringo?
- prostoalex 12y agoWhats the rent/own situation?
- deleted 12y ago[deleted]
- MichaelGG 12y agoBeing in Central America, yes some expenses are lower, but the additional security requirements seems like they could add up. I don't think it'd be out of the question to need $50K+ a year for a good multi-person 24/7 security detail. Plus as the upper class stays that way, it seems living in good spots starts costing as much as US cities. Even going to the movies, just my wife and I, can easily hit $100.
- tolas 12y ago$10k+ MRR (actually monthly recurring take home) with little to no work on my part (ie: 4hrs/wk ish) It's much more likely than me magically getting $5mm+, so I'm going to go with that.
- Riseed 12y agoAbout $500k-600k would mean I would not need to work for pay for the rest of my life. Doing whatever I please doesn't cost much money. If I'm only taking one year off, I'd want $20-50k so I could travel, but ~$12k would be more than sufficient for me to drop a job without worry.
- opendais 12y ago3 million. The safe withdrawal rate is between 2-3%, tbh. You've got to eat inflation, down turns, etc. I could live off of 60-90k/year [depending on the market], and not worry too much. However, if you throw in a wife [that brings you to 6 million] and the expectation of kids...its probably like 7-8 million.
- joeclark77 12y agoI'm thinking something similar, but remember also that on top of the 60-90k/year, you will also have an extra income from you (and your spouse) doing "whatever you want" which may only add a few tens of thousands, but it'd make a difference. You're not going to sit around on your sofa playing video games for 365 days a year, are you?
- opendais 12y agoAs a Catholic, I'd figure you'd have more respect for volunteer work and such? Last time I checked, that didn't pay.
- joeclark77 12y agoIs that what you're going to do 365 days a year? I think the typical definition of "FU money" is, enough money so that you never have to do anything you don't want to do. Not so you simply never have to do anything, at all, ever...
- opendais 12y agoYes, actually. I have a cousin who runs a charity that could use someone to do their IT work for free.
- nonce42 12y ago$8M. This is based on personal experience - that's the number where it started to feel different.
- fuddle 12y ago$1m
- icpmacdo 12y agoEvery morning in the shower I think about dropping everything after 70 million and living great forever.
- ljoshua 12y ago$300k. This would be the perfect amount for me to stop working for someone else, take good care of my family, and have a very large runway to try out some audacious ideas. Then after a few years if I wasn't liking the direction it was taking, I would be in no hard spot and would have done some incredible things, both professionally and with the fam. (To clarify, $300k is the "quit today" amount.) I also think that with that amount of capital it would be more plausible to create a business that would then generate the much higher numbers others are suggesting here.
- rbanffy 12y agoLast time I checked, $4M would be enough.
- mindcrime 12y agoI've always thought somewhere around $4M would be enough, but I'd feel more comfortable with about $10M to allow for contingencies.
- throwawayTRS 12y agoHave had this tested recently. I was at a startup that got acquired early by a company I didn't love. Salary, equity vesting + retention package package came to about a little less than $1M/year for 4 years. Took one year and decided it was enough to say "fuck you." So did most of the rest of the team. (Not sure exactly what their #s were.) It was interesting -- if you'd asked me a couple years ago how I would've acted in that situation, I think I'd've told you that for that kind of money I'd be stupid not to stick out four years. But when it actually happened I barely even considered it.
- DanBlake 12y agoAbout 10m. Invest that into 'safe' assets that only produce 3% a year, but do so with low risk and low overheard. 300k a year is about the right number to do everything you want to do if you are a family. Buy whatever cars you want (within reason) - travel when you want, eat what you want, live where you want. Thats the definition of FU money. You can do it for less, but its not FU money if you have to worry about possibly losing your fortune. Kids/family increases the number obviously, if they go to private school/college- Add 50k/yr per kid to that figure above.
- stephencanon 12y agoThat's about how I would define FU money, but with taxes and a margin of safety I'd put the actual number at 20M.
- ljoshua 12y agoI can see that. I've been hoping more for the FU money that would bring jump #1 (which is more how I defined it in my other comment), since jump #1/FU money #1 would be the only reasonable way for me to get to jump #2/FU money #2 with the cars, travel, and no work.
- cylinder 12y agoExcept you will eat up all your principal in about 30 years. You're going to need yo earn more than 3% or spend less than 300k yr.
- monksy 12y agoIts fairly easy to live on $<300k anywhere in the world.
- cookerware 12y ago10 million dollars after taxes so I'm guessing the actual amount is higher, possibly around 15 million dollars. on top of that 300k a year will be subjected to taxation, you will end up with 188k a year, not quite the 300k. you would need around 450k a year and after taxes, you will end up with 300k. to be able to produce that much you'd need about 15 million dollars after taxes. so in reality you'd need about 20 million dollars. 20 million dollars, would generate 300k after taxes if invested in bonds. from the 20 million, you'd end up with 15 or 14 million dollars after paying taxes. so 20 million dollars is what one would need to target for. however, note that you'd need to live in a large mansion that's already paid for and maintenance and expenses, property taxations being paid, I'd put away 30~50k for upkeep. You will probably have two kids on average so it will be another 100,000 to support them. 21 million, seems to be the true 'FU' money. After that leave off 400,000 after tax a year in money. 21 million is a staggering figure for someone starting out. I don't even know if I will get to one million.
- antidaily 12y agoHowever much Dan Bilzerian has.
- aianus 12y agoAt 22 years old it's probably around $800k with no wife or kids. According to an annuity calculator I found online, that's about $1100 a month for the next 60 years adjusted for inflation. More than enough to retire outside Europe/NA.
- MichaelGG 12y agoI guess it depends on what FU means. If it means just retiring, then there's plenty of ways. If it means being able to move or fix many circumstances to your liking, then I think $1100 a month may be too little.
- dpeck 12y agoI've always ballparked that if things fell into place with a project and I walked away with 10M or more I'd be out of the game. However the reality is that people who are ok with cashing out and walking away from the table seem to seldom be the ones getting the payoff. EDIT: I don't think a lot of you all know what FU money is. Its enough that you can say "FU" to anyone on the planet and not have any worries about doing so as you no longer need anything from anyone.
- pikachu_is_cool 12y ago$75,070 + however much taxes needed to purchase a Tesla Model S. I literally would not need anything else. I could go wherever I wanted whenever I wanted. I wouldn't have to pay for gas. I'd use Uber to drive people around with zero expenses. I'd sleep in the spacious back seat.
- lotsofmangos 12y ago£1
- downandout 12y ago$20M at least. To me, the definition of FU money is having enough money to turn down an opportunity to make $1M simply because you wouldn't enjoy the work. Even at $5-$10M, you're still considering those kinds of offers. People are saying much lower amounts in these comments, but one or two million doesn't go nearly as far as people think. When I think about the people I've known that are truly free and are easily able to afford enviable lifestyles, $20M seems to be starting point.
- deleted 12y ago[deleted]
- joshvm 12y agoWell some people love the rich life here! Assuming no need for work, I would say £2.5m to never work again. Tax free savings aren't much in the UK: you can put away £11k per year in an ISA and £40k total in Premium Bonds. For non UK people, ISAs are tax-free savings accounts that can either be cash only, stock only or half cash/stock (but stock only has a higher annual limit). An initial £500k is used to clear any debts, clear the mortgage (or buy a new house) and buy whatever creature comforts are needed e.g. do up the house, buy a nice efficient car, etc. I would probably go and live in Spain and build an eco house, solar is actually decent there and living costs are pretty low (if you don't need to work!). Let's assume a poor rate of return of 3% on the remaining £2m, or £60,000 before tax. The taxman will take 20% of that giving £48,000 to you. £11k of that should go straight back into tax free savings, so you've got £37,000 remaining. Some years you'll do better, some you'll do worse, but you could probably push for 5% without much trouble most years. I think my first port of call would be to hire a very good accountant. That's not a bad salary at all, especially if you own your house, car, etc. It's also more than enough to support dependents, but if you start thinking about private schools then it eats into it a bit. You have plenty to live day to day and enough to go on a good holiday each year. Let's assume you're fairly old when you get this magic windfall and have 40 years left to live. By the time you die, you'll have around a million in the ISA, by the power of compound interest. The bonds will pay out on average 1-2% a year leaving around £80k unless you win the jackpot. You'll also still have your starter £2m. Remember that rich people stay rich because they don't spend money.
- general_failure 12y ago200m usd
- cookerware 12y agothere's few different categories of FU money each with increasingly lower probability 1 million dollars: doable but very hard. you can finally buy that crack shack in vancouver, bc 10 million dollars: could be doable depending how you got to your first million. if it's scalable operation, no problem. 100 million dollars: continued growth from previous operation with compounding returns or have been part of a successful startup that was sold. 1000 million dollars: founder/co-founder of a company that was sold previously to a very large search engine or social network. 10000 million dollars: own majority equity in a very well known public company, inherited. 100000 million dollars: run a country that produces oil or cocaine as it's most popular exports. You can't have any competition around. launder it excessively.
- dar8919 12y agoNorth of 20M $
- purringmeow 12y ago2 million Euro. Just putting it in bank with 5% interest is 100,000 euro/year - more than enough for me.
- User9812 12y agoNote: Numbers below would be money in the bank, after taxes. 1 million: Takes the edge off, I could support a family, and live a reasonable lifestyle. I'd take up a hobby with the spouse, or work on personal projects to bring in some extra money and to keep busy. 2 million: Similar to above, but working is no longer necessary. I could life comfortably and be happy. Of course, I'd need to be careful with my spending, and not drop $1,000 on a bottle of wine. I'm not one for fancy toys, so this could easily be retirement money in my situation. 3 million+: Same as 2 million, but I'd just have the option to do everything a little bigger. Higher end cars, larger house, more expensive city, better downtown location, etc. Personally, not necessary, so I'd just bank it, or put it towards a startup. In short, I'll say 2 million is FU money. It provides everything I need in life, it would support a family, and at that point I can leave the rat race.
- mooij 12y agoAbout $1m. Enough to buy a house and take care of emergencies/unemployment/travel. I would drive me insane not to be able to program, but it's nice to be picky about what programming you actually do.
- joeclark77 12y agoNotice that not one reply here has quoted a figure in bitcoins.
- __xtrimsky 12y ago50M for me. 8-10M for a house in a perfect location 10M at least for retirement 10M for living, house taxes, vacations, probably a boat. 10M for creating a company, funding it myself at first. The 10M left I would probably share it with family. If I'm the only rich person around my family that would suck. And I have a big family.
- LyndsySimon 12y agoIf I had 1k BTC, I'd be willing to quit my job and work solely on my passions for a while. If I had 5k BTC, I'd never need to make money again.