9 ms·

I find your attitude confusing. Yes, America has its own culture. Yes, it's often different in many ways from what's typically found in India. But none of this

by Pacabel 12y ago

I find your attitude confusing. Yes, America has its own culture. Yes, it's often different in many ways from what's typically found in India. But none of this is a secret. Anyone who travels, whether for a short term or for much longer, to a country with distinctly different culture and customs should be prepared to adapt somewhat. Or at the very least, they should not be offended when the culture conflicts with what they're accustomed to. I don't think it's unreasonable to request that one staff member not cook food that others in the office may find to smell bad. Such a request isn't about race or gender or anything like that, obviously. I don't doubt that the same request would be made to an American who chose to cook the same food. The same goes for celebratory alcohol consumption after big events. It's just part of American culture in general. It happens when celebrating accomplishments of all sorts. It's one thing to avoid overt, unjustified discrimination. But I don't think that American companies should have to bend over backward to accommodate people who don't want to accept, or at least tolerate, the basic aspects of American culture, either. I say this as somebody who isn't even an American, by the way. This should hold true regardless of the company, where it's located, and where the foreign employees are from. If you want to work in a foreign country, you should be willing to adapt to their established cultural norms. If you don't like American culture and customs, for whatever reason, maybe you shouldn't live there.

talideon 12y ago
> The same goes for celebratory alcohol consumption after big events. It's just part of American culture in general. It happens when celebrating accomplishments of all sorts. But do you think it's fair to force somebody to partake it this kind of thing? If somebody's a teetotaller, why shouldn't they be allowed to opt out of this kind of thing?
- Pacabel 12y ago
  What makes you think they "forced" it on her? The earlier commenter wrote that "her teammates pressured her". While I don't know the particulars of this situation, it sure doesn't sound like they physically restrained her, forced open her mouth and poured alcohol down her throat, or anything that extreme. It was probably just verbal encouragement to try something she apparently hadn't done before, delivered in a friendly, although perhaps overt, manner. This is pretty common within American culture, when facing somebody who hasn't indulged in something that most Americans have. They'll encourage you to try it, and if you resist, they'll still encourage you to try it. Yes, somebody who isn't used to this aspect of American culture may consider it to be a form of "pressure". But the intent is probably good-natured, and it's more about helping somebody try new experiences rather than control. Most of the Americans I've dealt with, especially in a work setting, would not truly force the consumption of alcohol on somebody else, of course. Explaining to them that you don't drink, for whatever reason, will very likely put the matter to rest quickly. They may still playfully poke fun at you because of it, but that's just part of American culture.
  - amirmc 12y ago
    Everything you've described is part of the problem. For some of it there's a better word: bullying.
    - Pacabel 12y ago
      That's nonsense. Bullying is done out of malice. Encouraging somebody to enjoy a celebratory shot of alcohol after a big event is, in America, a show of friendship and camaraderie. Yes, Americans can often be assertive, especially in a playful or friendly manner. That's part of American culture. As a foreigner, it's best to understand this.
      - amirmc 12y ago
        Sometimes ignorance is just as bad as malice. I also note that your argument could be applied almost verbatim to women working in predominantly male environments. Or any other case where there's a minority surrounded by a entrenched majority. "It's just how things are" is not a satisfactory approach imho.
      - grrrando 12y ago
        The thing about ingrained racism and sexism is that it's rarely done out of malice or in an obvious, "WHOA THATS RACIST/SEXIST MAN," way. It was bullying and a expression of power, whether or not the participants were aware of themselves enough to realize it. As an American, it's best to understand this.
  - jaredsohn 12y ago
    > They may still playfully poke fun at you because of it, but that's just part of American culture. That isn't professional. As far as you know the person has had alcohol issues in her family and doesn't want to carry it into her work persona. Or she may believe in a religion that forbids it and doesn't want to be known for her religious views at work. Drinking a shot when you deploy or explaining why you won't should not be a requirement for a job as a software engineer.
YABguy 12y ago
I'm having a hard time believing you aren't trolling, but in any case - nobody is taking American culture away from you, or forcing you not to drink your ass off during celebratory events. Notwithstanding that this was a professional environment, where alcohol during work hours is illegal in some places - why pressure someone who isn't into those things to do them? Many Americans are vegans. Will you force them to eat Turkey during Thanksgiving, or else get the fuck out of America?
- Pacabel 12y ago
  I think that you've misunderstood my comment just as you've apparently misunderstood American culture. Instead of trying to truly understand American culture, I think you've just ended up injecting a lot of presumed malice that just isn't there in reality. What you and your friend see as "pressure", many Americans would consider just being friendly and sociable. What you see as an unreasonable request, many Americans would see as merely trying to be considerate of others and what they have to smell while at the office. And as I stated earlier, I'm not even an American. But I do realize that American culture is unique in many ways, and it's far more enjoyable to interact with Americans if you put forth the effort to understand where they're coming from, and why they act the way that they do.
  - amirmc 12y ago
    > "... it's far more enjoyable to interact with Americans if you put forth the effort to understand where they're coming from, and why they act the way that they do." Is it really too much to ask for the same in return?
    - ciupicri 12y ago
      When in Rome, do as the Romans do.
  - eaurouge 12y ago
    Vodka shots in the office, or during work hours, isn't part of American culture. Besides your description of American culture is too simplistic. I get the impression you don't understand American culture, which I guess is understandable since, as you say, you're not American.
jhonovich 12y ago
"bend over backward to accommodate people who don't want to accept, or at least tolerate, the basic aspects of American culture" Drinking shots at work is not a 'basic aspect' of American culture.
- Pacabel 12y ago
  No, it's not something that happens every day. But celebratory drinking after a significant event is a very common American custom. Based on what the earlier commenter wrote ("her teammates pressured her to drink a Vodka shot after a major deploy"), it apparently happened after a major software deployment. For small startups with close-knit teams who've just put in a lot of effort, this can be a big event, and cause for such celebration. This may not have even happened at the work place, mind you. The original comment isn't totally clear, but it's not at all unusual for an American software development team to go out for a few drinks at a nearby bar, especially after completing some important work. To most of the Americans there, it was probably a very insignificant thing. I don't see how they should be at fault for encouraging somebody else to engage in a pretty typical, and generally harmless, American social activity.
threeseed 12y ago
It is not the role of work colleagues to "teach" people how to be American. They should be tolerant, inclusive and understanding of people's differences. What you're proposing is the complete opposite and quite frankly it's people like you that are the problem in our industry.
lucisferre 12y ago
Am I misreading this or are you actually advocating in support of monoculture? I don't think a comment could be more stereotypical of the attitudes at the heart of this problem. > It's one thing to avoid overt, unjustified discrimination Right, the more covert, justified kind is really what's best. I also hope you don't consider deploys a "big" event. I do this multiple times a day (and I know Github does it even more). I'd have liver damage if this was normal.
- ciupicri 12y ago
  > Am I misreading this or are you actually advocating in support of monoculture? Aren't politically correct companies doing the same thing in the end except it's more like a non-culture than a monoculture?

by Pacabel 12y ago

talideon 12y ago

> The same goes for celebratory alcohol consumption after big events. It's just part of American culture in general. It happens when celebrating accomplishments of all sorts. But do you think it's fair to force somebody to partake it this kind of thing? If somebody's a teetotaller, why shouldn't they be allowed to opt out of this kind of thing?

Pacabel 12y ago
What makes you think they "forced" it on her? The earlier commenter wrote that "her teammates pressured her". While I don't know the particulars of this situation, it sure doesn't sound like they physically restrained her, forced open her mouth and poured alcohol down her throat, or anything that extreme. It was probably just verbal encouragement to try something she apparently hadn't done before, delivered in a friendly, although perhaps overt, manner. This is pretty common within American culture, when facing somebody who hasn't indulged in something that most Americans have. They'll encourage you to try it, and if you resist, they'll still encourage you to try it. Yes, somebody who isn't used to this aspect of American culture may consider it to be a form of "pressure". But the intent is probably good-natured, and it's more about helping somebody try new experiences rather than control. Most of the Americans I've dealt with, especially in a work setting, would not truly force the consumption of alcohol on somebody else, of course. Explaining to them that you don't drink, for whatever reason, will very likely put the matter to rest quickly. They may still playfully poke fun at you because of it, but that's just part of American culture.
- amirmc 12y ago
  Everything you've described is part of the problem. For some of it there's a better word: bullying.
  - Pacabel 12y ago
    That's nonsense. Bullying is done out of malice. Encouraging somebody to enjoy a celebratory shot of alcohol after a big event is, in America, a show of friendship and camaraderie. Yes, Americans can often be assertive, especially in a playful or friendly manner. That's part of American culture. As a foreigner, it's best to understand this.
    - amirmc 12y ago
      Sometimes ignorance is just as bad as malice. I also note that your argument could be applied almost verbatim to women working in predominantly male environments. Or any other case where there's a minority surrounded by a entrenched majority. "It's just how things are" is not a satisfactory approach imho.
    - grrrando 12y ago
      The thing about ingrained racism and sexism is that it's rarely done out of malice or in an obvious, "WHOA THATS RACIST/SEXIST MAN," way. It was bullying and a expression of power, whether or not the participants were aware of themselves enough to realize it. As an American, it's best to understand this.
- jaredsohn 12y ago
  > They may still playfully poke fun at you because of it, but that's just part of American culture. That isn't professional. As far as you know the person has had alcohol issues in her family and doesn't want to carry it into her work persona. Or she may believe in a religion that forbids it and doesn't want to be known for her religious views at work. Drinking a shot when you deploy or explaining why you won't should not be a requirement for a job as a software engineer.

YABguy 12y ago

I'm having a hard time believing you aren't trolling, but in any case - nobody is taking American culture away from you, or forcing you not to drink your ass off during celebratory events. Notwithstanding that this was a professional environment, where alcohol during work hours is illegal in some places - why pressure someone who isn't into those things to do them? Many Americans are vegans. Will you force them to eat Turkey during Thanksgiving, or else get the fuck out of America?

Pacabel 12y ago
I think that you've misunderstood my comment just as you've apparently misunderstood American culture. Instead of trying to truly understand American culture, I think you've just ended up injecting a lot of presumed malice that just isn't there in reality. What you and your friend see as "pressure", many Americans would consider just being friendly and sociable. What you see as an unreasonable request, many Americans would see as merely trying to be considerate of others and what they have to smell while at the office. And as I stated earlier, I'm not even an American. But I do realize that American culture is unique in many ways, and it's far more enjoyable to interact with Americans if you put forth the effort to understand where they're coming from, and why they act the way that they do.
- amirmc 12y ago
  > "... it's far more enjoyable to interact with Americans if you put forth the effort to understand where they're coming from, and why they act the way that they do." Is it really too much to ask for the same in return?
  - ciupicri 12y ago
    When in Rome, do as the Romans do.
- eaurouge 12y ago
  Vodka shots in the office, or during work hours, isn't part of American culture. Besides your description of American culture is too simplistic. I get the impression you don't understand American culture, which I guess is understandable since, as you say, you're not American.

jhonovich 12y ago

"bend over backward to accommodate people who don't want to accept, or at least tolerate, the basic aspects of American culture" Drinking shots at work is not a 'basic aspect' of American culture.

Pacabel 12y ago
No, it's not something that happens every day. But celebratory drinking after a significant event is a very common American custom. Based on what the earlier commenter wrote ("her teammates pressured her to drink a Vodka shot after a major deploy"), it apparently happened after a major software deployment. For small startups with close-knit teams who've just put in a lot of effort, this can be a big event, and cause for such celebration. This may not have even happened at the work place, mind you. The original comment isn't totally clear, but it's not at all unusual for an American software development team to go out for a few drinks at a nearby bar, especially after completing some important work. To most of the Americans there, it was probably a very insignificant thing. I don't see how they should be at fault for encouraging somebody else to engage in a pretty typical, and generally harmless, American social activity.

threeseed 12y ago

It is not the role of work colleagues to "teach" people how to be American. They should be tolerant, inclusive and understanding of people's differences. What you're proposing is the complete opposite and quite frankly it's people like you that are the problem in our industry.

lucisferre 12y ago

Am I misreading this or are you actually advocating in support of monoculture? I don't think a comment could be more stereotypical of the attitudes at the heart of this problem. > It's one thing to avoid overt, unjustified discrimination Right, the more covert, justified kind is really what's best. I also hope you don't consider deploys a "big" event. I do this multiple times a day (and I know Github does it even more). I'd have liver damage if this was normal.

ciupicri 12y ago
> Am I misreading this or are you actually advocating in support of monoculture? Aren't politically correct companies doing the same thing in the end except it's more like a non-culture than a monoculture?