4 ms·

There is an interesting race/gender intersectional aspect of the "not enough women in the pipeline" problem that gets thrown around on HN so often. They're disc

by YABguy 12y ago

There is an interesting race/gender intersectional aspect of the "not enough women in the pipeline" problem that gets thrown around on HN so often. They're discounting thousands of Indian and Asian women who are entering the industry every year, especially at the graduate level. Where do they end up working? Mostly in big cos. Why? You guessed it - startup "culture". As an anecdote, a few weeks ago, a very good Indian friend of mine started work at a hot SF startup (their backend is in Go!). In her second week, she was asked not to heat up her food in the microwave because her food 'smelled'. If that wasn't enough, her teammates pressured her to drink a Vodka shot after a major deploy (which is apparently, customary). Never mind she's never tasted alcohol in her life. She quit in her 3rd week. This is not a single anecdote. As an Indian person currently working at a startup, I can tell you first hand that the big cos I've worked at are far more culturally sensitive and accomodating to POC.

jonnybgood 12y ago
> As an anecdote, a few weeks ago, a very good Indian friend of mine started work at a hot SF startup (their backend is in Go!). In her second week, she was asked not to heat up her food in the microwave because her food 'smelled'. That's a hard one. I personally don't see that as a cultural issue. Startups are usually within small quarters. Big Co's typically have isolated "kitchen areas". I think it's important when working in small quarters organizations to be respectful of the workplace and sensibilities of your coworkers. It's somewhat analogous to BO when someone refuses to wear deodorant or the likes because of their convictions. Unlike noise that can be drowned out with headphones, you can't really drown out smells.
- YABguy 12y ago
  Indian food isn't BO. It's a different kind of food. For me, personally, I didn't like the smell of bacon at first. But guess what? I sucked it up and got used to it. That's what cultural sensitivity is. If you can't stand the smell of Indian food, then at least be honest about it and don't hire Indian people as a policy. Why this pretense about diversity?
  - jonnybgood 12y ago
    >Indian food isn't BO. Didn't say it was. I was speaking on sensibilities. > I sucked it up and got used to it. That's what cultural sensitivity is. Cultural sensitivity is not telling people to "suck it up." That's how you create problems. We're speaking about the workplace, a professional environment that should be culturally neutral as possible so that cultural particulars do not affect the working conditions of others.
    - justizin 12y ago
      as culturally neutral as possible, and welcoming of those who are a culture fit?
- reledi 12y ago
  So what's their microwave for if you can't heat up food?
  - Pacabel 12y ago
    Heating up food that doesn't cause odors that enough others in the office apparently dislike, obviously.
    - YABguy 12y ago
      So if I don't like bacon and ask you to stop bringing it to lunch, will you do it? Why, because this is "your" country? My friend is actually a US citizen. If the majority of my coworkers are devout Christians, and they ask me to take off my desktop wallpaper because it contains elements of Hindu symbolism, is that permissible?
      - A_COMPUTER 12y ago
        Take solace, big corp won't let you change your wallpaper away from the approved one with the company logo, precisely so that no one is ever offended. That is the tradeoff. Maybe the same thing that makes big corp so safe is also what makes it so boring that your friend wants to work in a startup instead. Maybe startups have so much potential because you're opinionated but otherwise rule-free, so the tradeoff there is that not everybody is compatible with the company culture. Maybe I'm a white Mormon, and there are millions of us in the USA (more of us than there are Indians, btw) who don't drink either despite the pervasive American drinking culture, and get pressured to drink. all. the. time. But get along better with an office of mostly Indian Muslims because none of us drink or send porno pictures to each other over email, entirely by choice rather than by regulation. And we can do it all in a tiny company with few rules because we have a company culture. Maybe startup culture needs more Indian (or Mormon...) founders.
    - reledi 12y ago
      How do you know beforehand what smells others dislike? What happens when the cumulative dislikes of food smells makes it impossible to bring in most meals? My partner is a vegetarian and doesn't like the smell of meat. Would you stop eating all your meat dishes in the office? What happens when someone who was "banned" from eating or heating their food in the office fights back by suddenly banning other foods?
Pacabel 12y ago
I find your attitude confusing. Yes, America has its own culture. Yes, it's often different in many ways from what's typically found in India. But none of this is a secret. Anyone who travels, whether for a short term or for much longer, to a country with distinctly different culture and customs should be prepared to adapt somewhat. Or at the very least, they should not be offended when the culture conflicts with what they're accustomed to. I don't think it's unreasonable to request that one staff member not cook food that others in the office may find to smell bad. Such a request isn't about race or gender or anything like that, obviously. I don't doubt that the same request would be made to an American who chose to cook the same food. The same goes for celebratory alcohol consumption after big events. It's just part of American culture in general. It happens when celebrating accomplishments of all sorts. It's one thing to avoid overt, unjustified discrimination. But I don't think that American companies should have to bend over backward to accommodate people who don't want to accept, or at least tolerate, the basic aspects of American culture, either. I say this as somebody who isn't even an American, by the way. This should hold true regardless of the company, where it's located, and where the foreign employees are from. If you want to work in a foreign country, you should be willing to adapt to their established cultural norms. If you don't like American culture and customs, for whatever reason, maybe you shouldn't live there.
- talideon 12y ago
  > The same goes for celebratory alcohol consumption after big events. It's just part of American culture in general. It happens when celebrating accomplishments of all sorts. But do you think it's fair to force somebody to partake it this kind of thing? If somebody's a teetotaller, why shouldn't they be allowed to opt out of this kind of thing?
  - Pacabel 12y ago
    What makes you think they "forced" it on her? The earlier commenter wrote that "her teammates pressured her". While I don't know the particulars of this situation, it sure doesn't sound like they physically restrained her, forced open her mouth and poured alcohol down her throat, or anything that extreme. It was probably just verbal encouragement to try something she apparently hadn't done before, delivered in a friendly, although perhaps overt, manner. This is pretty common within American culture, when facing somebody who hasn't indulged in something that most Americans have. They'll encourage you to try it, and if you resist, they'll still encourage you to try it. Yes, somebody who isn't used to this aspect of American culture may consider it to be a form of "pressure". But the intent is probably good-natured, and it's more about helping somebody try new experiences rather than control. Most of the Americans I've dealt with, especially in a work setting, would not truly force the consumption of alcohol on somebody else, of course. Explaining to them that you don't drink, for whatever reason, will very likely put the matter to rest quickly. They may still playfully poke fun at you because of it, but that's just part of American culture.
ciupicri 12y ago
> They're discounting thousands of Indian and Asian women Aren't Indians also Asians?
- YABguy 12y ago
  In the American context they're usually spoken of as separate cultural groups.
- alinajaf 12y ago
  That always confused me too. In the UK Asian typically refers to South Asian. In the US I think if you called us South Asians and what you're currently calling Asians East Asians it might make things a little less confusing.
- threeseed 12y ago
  In the UK Indians are Asians. In the rest of the world Asians means Oriental and are separate from Indians.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]

by YABguy 12y ago

jonnybgood 12y ago

> As an anecdote, a few weeks ago, a very good Indian friend of mine started work at a hot SF startup (their backend is in Go!). In her second week, she was asked not to heat up her food in the microwave because her food 'smelled'. That's a hard one. I personally don't see that as a cultural issue. Startups are usually within small quarters. Big Co's typically have isolated "kitchen areas". I think it's important when working in small quarters organizations to be respectful of the workplace and sensibilities of your coworkers. It's somewhat analogous to BO when someone refuses to wear deodorant or the likes because of their convictions. Unlike noise that can be drowned out with headphones, you can't really drown out smells.

YABguy 12y ago
Indian food isn't BO. It's a different kind of food. For me, personally, I didn't like the smell of bacon at first. But guess what? I sucked it up and got used to it. That's what cultural sensitivity is. If you can't stand the smell of Indian food, then at least be honest about it and don't hire Indian people as a policy. Why this pretense about diversity?
- jonnybgood 12y ago
  >Indian food isn't BO. Didn't say it was. I was speaking on sensibilities. > I sucked it up and got used to it. That's what cultural sensitivity is. Cultural sensitivity is not telling people to "suck it up." That's how you create problems. We're speaking about the workplace, a professional environment that should be culturally neutral as possible so that cultural particulars do not affect the working conditions of others.
  - justizin 12y ago
    as culturally neutral as possible, and welcoming of those who are a culture fit?
reledi 12y ago
So what's their microwave for if you can't heat up food?
- Pacabel 12y ago
  Heating up food that doesn't cause odors that enough others in the office apparently dislike, obviously.
  - YABguy 12y ago
    So if I don't like bacon and ask you to stop bringing it to lunch, will you do it? Why, because this is "your" country? My friend is actually a US citizen. If the majority of my coworkers are devout Christians, and they ask me to take off my desktop wallpaper because it contains elements of Hindu symbolism, is that permissible?
    - A_COMPUTER 12y ago
      Take solace, big corp won't let you change your wallpaper away from the approved one with the company logo, precisely so that no one is ever offended. That is the tradeoff. Maybe the same thing that makes big corp so safe is also what makes it so boring that your friend wants to work in a startup instead. Maybe startups have so much potential because you're opinionated but otherwise rule-free, so the tradeoff there is that not everybody is compatible with the company culture. Maybe I'm a white Mormon, and there are millions of us in the USA (more of us than there are Indians, btw) who don't drink either despite the pervasive American drinking culture, and get pressured to drink. all. the. time. But get along better with an office of mostly Indian Muslims because none of us drink or send porno pictures to each other over email, entirely by choice rather than by regulation. And we can do it all in a tiny company with few rules because we have a company culture. Maybe startup culture needs more Indian (or Mormon...) founders.
  - reledi 12y ago
    How do you know beforehand what smells others dislike? What happens when the cumulative dislikes of food smells makes it impossible to bring in most meals? My partner is a vegetarian and doesn't like the smell of meat. Would you stop eating all your meat dishes in the office? What happens when someone who was "banned" from eating or heating their food in the office fights back by suddenly banning other foods?

Pacabel 12y ago

I find your attitude confusing. Yes, America has its own culture. Yes, it's often different in many ways from what's typically found in India. But none of this is a secret. Anyone who travels, whether for a short term or for much longer, to a country with distinctly different culture and customs should be prepared to adapt somewhat. Or at the very least, they should not be offended when the culture conflicts with what they're accustomed to. I don't think it's unreasonable to request that one staff member not cook food that others in the office may find to smell bad. Such a request isn't about race or gender or anything like that, obviously. I don't doubt that the same request would be made to an American who chose to cook the same food. The same goes for celebratory alcohol consumption after big events. It's just part of American culture in general. It happens when celebrating accomplishments of all sorts. It's one thing to avoid overt, unjustified discrimination. But I don't think that American companies should have to bend over backward to accommodate people who don't want to accept, or at least tolerate, the basic aspects of American culture, either. I say this as somebody who isn't even an American, by the way. This should hold true regardless of the company, where it's located, and where the foreign employees are from. If you want to work in a foreign country, you should be willing to adapt to their established cultural norms. If you don't like American culture and customs, for whatever reason, maybe you shouldn't live there.

talideon 12y ago
> The same goes for celebratory alcohol consumption after big events. It's just part of American culture in general. It happens when celebrating accomplishments of all sorts. But do you think it's fair to force somebody to partake it this kind of thing? If somebody's a teetotaller, why shouldn't they be allowed to opt out of this kind of thing?
- Pacabel 12y ago
  What makes you think they "forced" it on her? The earlier commenter wrote that "her teammates pressured her". While I don't know the particulars of this situation, it sure doesn't sound like they physically restrained her, forced open her mouth and poured alcohol down her throat, or anything that extreme. It was probably just verbal encouragement to try something she apparently hadn't done before, delivered in a friendly, although perhaps overt, manner. This is pretty common within American culture, when facing somebody who hasn't indulged in something that most Americans have. They'll encourage you to try it, and if you resist, they'll still encourage you to try it. Yes, somebody who isn't used to this aspect of American culture may consider it to be a form of "pressure". But the intent is probably good-natured, and it's more about helping somebody try new experiences rather than control. Most of the Americans I've dealt with, especially in a work setting, would not truly force the consumption of alcohol on somebody else, of course. Explaining to them that you don't drink, for whatever reason, will very likely put the matter to rest quickly. They may still playfully poke fun at you because of it, but that's just part of American culture.

ciupicri 12y ago

> They're discounting thousands of Indian and Asian women Aren't Indians also Asians?

YABguy 12y ago
In the American context they're usually spoken of as separate cultural groups.
alinajaf 12y ago
That always confused me too. In the UK Asian typically refers to South Asian. In the US I think if you called us South Asians and what you're currently calling Asians East Asians it might make things a little less confusing.
threeseed 12y ago
In the UK Indians are Asians. In the rest of the world Asians means Oriental and are separate from Indians.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]