7 ms·

"Together sentenced Pirate Bay founders in addition to prison to pay damages of around 46 million." Yeah, that's never going to happen. The prosecutor in their

by anaphor 12y ago

"Together sentenced Pirate Bay founders in addition to prison to pay damages of around 46 million." Yeah, that's never going to happen. The prosecutor in their case came up with some fantastical amount of money TPB is supposed to have made, but it's complete nonsense (see the documentary TPB: AFK for details).

ArcticCelt 12y ago
Can he just fill for bankruptcy to clear the damages?
- yuhong 12y ago
  They will most likely appeal I think.
- Tomte 12y ago
  Without knowing Swedish law, I'm rather certain he cannot. Personal bankruptcy is usually out of the question for debts arising from unlawful behaviour. You cannot evade damages or a penalty imposed by a court just by filing bankruptcy. Imagine a legal system where you could. Preposterous.
  - sergiosgc 12y ago
    In my country you can. There is also a 20 year limit to prison sentences, no matter the crime. The objective of the judicial system is not to punish but to recover dysfunctional society members. As such, it makes no sense to punish anyone with a life sentence, no matter the type (prison or fiduciary).
    - Crito 12y ago
      > There is also a 20 year limit to prison sentences, no matter the crime. That seems mildly misleading. Sentences can be extended beyond 20 years as long as the person is still believed to be dangerous to society.
      - sergiosgc 12y ago
        Not in Portugal. They may extend to 25 by accumulation, but other than that, the limit is absolute. You may conclude that someone is insane and force them to be institutionalized, but that is not prison, and the decision is not ever final.
        zanny 12y ago
        I don't think I'd be really comfortable with convicted serial murderers walking around. Hell, any murderer. Manslaughter can be a mistake or an accident, but if you intentionally aggressively killed someone I'd rather not be walking past you on a street or participating with you in an open market... I don't believe in the death penalty, but I also believe an essential function of prison is to remove the irredeemable from society so they aren't a threat anymore. I'm not sure you can classify anyone insane just for wanting to kill people, but I'm also not a psychologist. I also would not want to be the psychologist who released a serial murder considering him safe to return to society only for him to on another murder spree...
        Tombone5 12y ago
        Typically the observation is made that if you are a serial murderer you are not really to be considered sane and into closed treatment you go, not coming out until you are sane again which I guess is not ever if the crime is really gruesome.
        Tombone5 12y ago
        Also, in regards to "any murderer", I belive that there really isn't much beyond the perspective of those asked that separate (some) terrorists from soldiers from murderers...
        collyw 12y ago
        Soldiers are taking their orders from a higher authority. Not sure who is telling terrorists or murderers.
        12y ago
  - yashosky 12y ago
    @sergiosgc: Which country is that?
    - arfliw 12y ago
      Sounds like Norway.
    - sergiosgc 12y ago
      Portugal
  - thinkpad20 12y ago
    Preposterous, perhaps, but it also creates a class of people who can afford to break laws.
- kybernetyk 12y ago
  If swedish bankruptcy law is anything similar to the German then he possibly can not. (Liabilities resulting from criminal action are not covered by bankruptcy laws.)
  - NoMoreNicksLeft 12y ago
    We have something like that here in the United States... bankruptcy won't clear student loans.
- kaugesaar 12y ago
  He probably can. 5 years with living wage and he would be debt free. If he has filled for bankruptcy before (which I don't know) he might be denied the chance again. // Swedish
- oliwary 12y ago
  Not bankruptcy, but "skuldsanering", which resembles "debt relief order" in English. It is a system for heavily indebted people to free themselves of their debt after living on a minimum for five years. It also includes damages due to crimes. [1] It is pretty rare however (5357 in 2013)[2]. There are two requirements: The person has to be indebted enough to not be able to pay off the debt in the foreseeable future, and the procedure has to be reasonable with regards to the personal and economical circumstances of the person.[3] This includes the age of the debt, why they came up and if the person has worked to pay them off. [1] https://lagen.nu/dom/rh/1996:33 https://lagen.nu/dom/rh/1996:33 [2] http://www.kronofogden.se/20136.html http://www.kronofogden.se/20136.html [3] https://lagen.nu/2006:548 https://lagen.nu/2006:548 [4] http://www.kronofogden.se/Vemkanfaskuldsanering.html http://www.kronofogden.se/Vemkanfaskuldsanering.html
  - Tombone5 12y ago
    From my reading of the fastställda tingsrättsdomen I note that they mention this excpetion being granted on a case by case basis, and considering Sunde is not a reformed alcoholic with a debth from a accident caused by his addiction it seems unlikely the case you refer to proves more than the existence of the exception.
    - oliwary 12y ago
      Indeed. My point was only that skuldsanering would free him from the damages, not that it is necessarily applicable in this case.
- belorn 12y ago
  One can not file for personal bankruptcy or "skuldsanering" for this situation. Both of those are for non-criminal situation, and has also additional requirements attached to them. The damages from a criminal case expire once Statute of limitations hits in, which is in this case 5 years (based on copyright infringement maximum jail time). I do not know when the timer starts to tick, but I would assume it starts once he is serving his sentence. http://lawline.se/answers/9089 http://lawline.se/answers/9089 https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preskription https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preskription
bjourne 12y ago
That's in SEK so about 5m € or 7m $. Nobody knows how much money they made or even has an estimate. But they did have lots of advertising for years on one of the worlds most popular sites and their costs for running it were minimal. They are bound to have made something from it.
- fredsted 12y ago
  >costs for running it were minimal What makes you say that?
  - tptacek 12y ago
    One possible stab towards a response is to observe that the cost for most popular sites is dominated by headcount costs, and TPB didn't have a large headcount.
    - zz1 12y ago
      They also had to buy new servers a few times.
      - XorNot 12y ago
        That's still 10-20k tops.
        ericd 12y ago
        I think you mean 10k each, times a potentially large number.
    - belorn 12y ago
      Looking at the budget for Wikipedia, I can not see a headcount cost. There is hardware and bandwidth costs, which should be very similar to the running costs TPB had when the trio ran it.
      - 12y ago
funkyy 12y ago
I think you need to do your research. Those guys are pretty packed. Their DC alone is money making like crazy. I know few folks that actually used their hosting services ~2 years ago - their pricing is among highest in industry. Also they have dozens of small projects running. TPB is running ads etc - what would be cost of running, 10 dedicated servers? And what would be the income? Around few hundred thousands?
- belorn 12y ago
  I assume you got tax records to support that PRQ is earning money like crazy? I am going to assume that the tax collectors know their job and is not letting a crazy revenue source continue going untaxed. For TPB advertisement, do you have numbers on how competitive advertisement space is for a website like the pirate bay? Would startups here forexample be willing to pay top dollars for ads there? Willing to use untraceable methods to pay for it? I personally have a hard time seeing either PRQ or TPB as massive revenue sources at this point in time.
  - thaumasiotes 12y ago
    What's the point of using untraceable methods to pay for advertising? Won't your name be right there in the ad?
    - dewey 12y ago
      The companies advertising in places like this are usually not exactly the ones with a legit business address and a great track record of being transparent. The money made from ads is probably a lot less than the ad revenue you know from other places, there are a lot of middlemen, ad networks, and money services involved and everyones takes their cut.
    - belorn 12y ago
      The advertiser might be willing to put down his name, but what about the person/persons on the other end. No one knows who is running TPB at this time, nor where the servers are. If that information would leak through paper-trails, you can be sure legal actions would be sent their way by a number of anti-piracy groups. Questions about taxes and damages could also pop up depending on whom is running TPB and from where.
sleepyhead 12y ago
The verdict is clear and has been passed. Whether you think it is complete nonsense is irrelevant.
- sleepyhead 12y ago
  Getting downvoted... Interesting to see that HN readers think their views is more more important than the rule of law. I'm not saying the verdict is correct. But debunking it as complete nonsense and "that's never going to happen" is a clear misconception how the world and the legal system works.
  - anaphor 12y ago
    (FYI I didn't downvote you) The reason I said that it's never going to happen is because they are simply unable to pay that amount back. They can't just pull millions out of thin air correct? So I think it's reasonable to conclude it will probably never get paid, at least not in full.

by anaphor 12y ago

ArcticCelt 12y ago

Can he just fill for bankruptcy to clear the damages?

yuhong 12y ago
They will most likely appeal I think.
Tomte 12y ago
Without knowing Swedish law, I'm rather certain he cannot. Personal bankruptcy is usually out of the question for debts arising from unlawful behaviour. You cannot evade damages or a penalty imposed by a court just by filing bankruptcy. Imagine a legal system where you could. Preposterous.
- sergiosgc 12y ago
  In my country you can. There is also a 20 year limit to prison sentences, no matter the crime. The objective of the judicial system is not to punish but to recover dysfunctional society members. As such, it makes no sense to punish anyone with a life sentence, no matter the type (prison or fiduciary).
  - Crito 12y ago
    > There is also a 20 year limit to prison sentences, no matter the crime. That seems mildly misleading. Sentences can be extended beyond 20 years as long as the person is still believed to be dangerous to society.
    - sergiosgc 12y ago
      Not in Portugal. They may extend to 25 by accumulation, but other than that, the limit is absolute. You may conclude that someone is insane and force them to be institutionalized, but that is not prison, and the decision is not ever final.
      - zanny 12y ago
        I don't think I'd be really comfortable with convicted serial murderers walking around. Hell, any murderer. Manslaughter can be a mistake or an accident, but if you intentionally aggressively killed someone I'd rather not be walking past you on a street or participating with you in an open market... I don't believe in the death penalty, but I also believe an essential function of prison is to remove the irredeemable from society so they aren't a threat anymore. I'm not sure you can classify anyone insane just for wanting to kill people, but I'm also not a psychologist. I also would not want to be the psychologist who released a serial murder considering him safe to return to society only for him to on another murder spree...
        Tombone5 12y ago
        Typically the observation is made that if you are a serial murderer you are not really to be considered sane and into closed treatment you go, not coming out until you are sane again which I guess is not ever if the crime is really gruesome.
        Tombone5 12y ago
        Also, in regards to "any murderer", I belive that there really isn't much beyond the perspective of those asked that separate (some) terrorists from soldiers from murderers...
        collyw 12y ago
        Soldiers are taking their orders from a higher authority. Not sure who is telling terrorists or murderers.
        12y ago
- yashosky 12y ago
  @sergiosgc: Which country is that?
  - arfliw 12y ago
    Sounds like Norway.
  - sergiosgc 12y ago
    Portugal
- thinkpad20 12y ago
  Preposterous, perhaps, but it also creates a class of people who can afford to break laws.
kybernetyk 12y ago
If swedish bankruptcy law is anything similar to the German then he possibly can not. (Liabilities resulting from criminal action are not covered by bankruptcy laws.)
- NoMoreNicksLeft 12y ago
  We have something like that here in the United States... bankruptcy won't clear student loans.
kaugesaar 12y ago
He probably can. 5 years with living wage and he would be debt free. If he has filled for bankruptcy before (which I don't know) he might be denied the chance again. // Swedish
oliwary 12y ago
Not bankruptcy, but "skuldsanering", which resembles "debt relief order" in English. It is a system for heavily indebted people to free themselves of their debt after living on a minimum for five years. It also includes damages due to crimes. [1] It is pretty rare however (5357 in 2013)[2]. There are two requirements: The person has to be indebted enough to not be able to pay off the debt in the foreseeable future, and the procedure has to be reasonable with regards to the personal and economical circumstances of the person.[3] This includes the age of the debt, why they came up and if the person has worked to pay them off. [1] https://lagen.nu/dom/rh/1996:33 https://lagen.nu/dom/rh/1996:33 [2] http://www.kronofogden.se/20136.html http://www.kronofogden.se/20136.html [3] https://lagen.nu/2006:548 https://lagen.nu/2006:548 [4] http://www.kronofogden.se/Vemkanfaskuldsanering.html http://www.kronofogden.se/Vemkanfaskuldsanering.html
- Tombone5 12y ago
  From my reading of the fastställda tingsrättsdomen I note that they mention this excpetion being granted on a case by case basis, and considering Sunde is not a reformed alcoholic with a debth from a accident caused by his addiction it seems unlikely the case you refer to proves more than the existence of the exception.
  - oliwary 12y ago
    Indeed. My point was only that skuldsanering would free him from the damages, not that it is necessarily applicable in this case.
belorn 12y ago
One can not file for personal bankruptcy or "skuldsanering" for this situation. Both of those are for non-criminal situation, and has also additional requirements attached to them. The damages from a criminal case expire once Statute of limitations hits in, which is in this case 5 years (based on copyright infringement maximum jail time). I do not know when the timer starts to tick, but I would assume it starts once he is serving his sentence. http://lawline.se/answers/9089 http://lawline.se/answers/9089 https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preskription https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preskription

bjourne 12y ago

That's in SEK so about 5m € or 7m $. Nobody knows how much money they made or even has an estimate. But they did have lots of advertising for years on one of the worlds most popular sites and their costs for running it were minimal. They are bound to have made something from it.

fredsted 12y ago
>costs for running it were minimal What makes you say that?
- tptacek 12y ago
  One possible stab towards a response is to observe that the cost for most popular sites is dominated by headcount costs, and TPB didn't have a large headcount.
  - zz1 12y ago
    They also had to buy new servers a few times.
    - XorNot 12y ago
      That's still 10-20k tops.
      - ericd 12y ago
        I think you mean 10k each, times a potentially large number.
  - belorn 12y ago
    Looking at the budget for Wikipedia, I can not see a headcount cost. There is hardware and bandwidth costs, which should be very similar to the running costs TPB had when the trio ran it.
    - 12y ago

funkyy 12y ago

I think you need to do your research. Those guys are pretty packed. Their DC alone is money making like crazy. I know few folks that actually used their hosting services ~2 years ago - their pricing is among highest in industry. Also they have dozens of small projects running. TPB is running ads etc - what would be cost of running, 10 dedicated servers? And what would be the income? Around few hundred thousands?

belorn 12y ago
I assume you got tax records to support that PRQ is earning money like crazy? I am going to assume that the tax collectors know their job and is not letting a crazy revenue source continue going untaxed. For TPB advertisement, do you have numbers on how competitive advertisement space is for a website like the pirate bay? Would startups here forexample be willing to pay top dollars for ads there? Willing to use untraceable methods to pay for it? I personally have a hard time seeing either PRQ or TPB as massive revenue sources at this point in time.
- thaumasiotes 12y ago
  What's the point of using untraceable methods to pay for advertising? Won't your name be right there in the ad?
  - dewey 12y ago
    The companies advertising in places like this are usually not exactly the ones with a legit business address and a great track record of being transparent. The money made from ads is probably a lot less than the ad revenue you know from other places, there are a lot of middlemen, ad networks, and money services involved and everyones takes their cut.
  - belorn 12y ago
    The advertiser might be willing to put down his name, but what about the person/persons on the other end. No one knows who is running TPB at this time, nor where the servers are. If that information would leak through paper-trails, you can be sure legal actions would be sent their way by a number of anti-piracy groups. Questions about taxes and damages could also pop up depending on whom is running TPB and from where.

sleepyhead 12y ago

The verdict is clear and has been passed. Whether you think it is complete nonsense is irrelevant.

sleepyhead 12y ago
Getting downvoted... Interesting to see that HN readers think their views is more more important than the rule of law. I'm not saying the verdict is correct. But debunking it as complete nonsense and "that's never going to happen" is a clear misconception how the world and the legal system works.
- anaphor 12y ago
  (FYI I didn't downvote you) The reason I said that it's never going to happen is because they are simply unable to pay that amount back. They can't just pull millions out of thin air correct? So I think it's reasonable to conclude it will probably never get paid, at least not in full.