4 ms·

Bringing up things like poverty or parental education is a red herring. An Asian student from a family earning $0-10k has a higher average SAT math score than a

Bringing up things like poverty or parental education is a red herring. An Asian student from a family earning $0-10k has a higher average SAT math score than a black student from a family earning $70k+. (Data was leaked from the college board in 1995. I'm not aware of more current data - anyone else? Specifically, I'm looking for a data set which slices some sort of outcome score by (race, income) pairs.) http://theunsilencedscience.blogspot.in/2013/10/black-suits-gowns-skin-sat-scores-by.html http://theunsilencedscience.blogspot.in/2013/10/black-suits-... I'm not sure what you mean by "easing poverty" or "desperation...their families experience". Could you explicitly list what good/services poor children lack which cause them to underperform?

trustfundbaby 12y ago
> An Asian student from a family earning $0-10k has a higher average SAT math score than a black student from a family earning $70k+. This is true but heres something to consider, my feeling is that Asian Americans are what I consider newer immigrants to America. My understanding is that they actually started to come here in large numbers after 1965 when the Immigration and Nationality Act Amendments eliminated racial/nationality-based discrimination in immigration quotas. Why is this important? I think that you'll find that if you compare the SAT scores of Asian Americans to recent black immigrants to the United States (Nigerians, Ghanaians and jamaicans for example), you might find that their scores are much closer than your initial comparison. The reason for that is what I call the immigrant effect ... explained by this quote from a David Brooks NY Times article http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/26/opinion/sunday/what-drives-success.html?hp&rref=opinion&_r=2&referrer=&assetType=nyt_now http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/26/opinion/sunday/what-drives... "Group success in America often tends to dissipate after two generations. Thus while Asian-American kids overall had SAT scores 143 points above average in 2012 — including a 63-point edge over whites — a 2005 study of over 20,000 adolescents found that third-generation Asian-American students performed no better academically than white students"
- yummyfajitas 12y ago
  My only point is that parental income is not driving force behind racial achievement gaps. Perhaps immigrant status is the driving force behind the Asian/Black and Asian/White gaps. But then what causes the Asian/Mexican gap? Also, if you have data showing Nigerian/Ghanaian/Jamaican immigrants do as well as Asians, or the original source for Amy Chua's data, I'd love to see it.
  - trustfundbaby 12y ago
    > My only point is that parental income is not driving force behind racial achievement gaps I wish I had more data for you, but how could it not be? Better incomes means better homes, in better neighorhoods, betters schools and access to the kind of environments suitable for realizing full educational potential of a child. With the notable exception of blacks who as noted in the American Life episode 'house rules' "The average African-American household making $75,000 a year or more, that family lives in a poorer neighborhood than the average white family making less than $40,000 a year. That is, a black family making twice as much money as a white family probably still lives in a poorer neighborhood. That's according to a study from Brown University." http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/512/transcript http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/512/t... which means that the access to better education of what I said above, probably doesn't apply to the same degree for blacks as it does for others. > Also, if you have data showing Nigerian/Ghanaian/Jamaican immigrants do as well as Asians, or the original source for Amy Chua's data, I'd love to see it. I wish I did, but I don't. I took an African American Studies class years ago with a source, but I didn't save it :\ > But then what causes the Asian/Mexican gap? That I'm not sure of. Definitely plan to do a bit more reading around that
    - yummyfajitas 12y ago
      ...how could it not be? You suggest one possible way it could be true - black families with money choose not to spend it on things that you believe improve outcomes, and asians spend their money on these things even more. This seems unlikely since the curve relating black outcomes to black income is upward sloping just like all the other curves. Another possibility: "better homes, better neighborhoods, better schools" don't actually improve outcomes. Some hidden factor X might be causing both higher income, better homes, better schools, and better outcomes.
epsylon 12y ago
Bringing up things like poverty or parental education is a red herring. An Asian student from a family earning $0-10k has a higher average SAT math score than a black student from a family earning $70k+. I disagree that this is a red herring. Children of wealthy parents perform better academically, plain and simple, across all races, gender, immigrant status or not. (This is true everywhere in the world.) The fact that first-gen immigrant children might perform better due is simply due to a sampling bias.
- pc86 12y ago
  You really can't just throw your hands in the air and say "No, that's sampling bias." Do you have a source to support your claim?
  - epsylon 12y ago
    A bit late on my answer, but this is a well-studied phenomenon: http://www.brookings.edu/research/reports/2011/12/15-school-readiness-isaacs http://www.brookings.edu/research/reports/2011/12/15-school-... http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/10/education/education-gap-grows-between-rich-and-poor-studies-show.html?pagewanted=all http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/10/education/education-gap-gr... http://www.ascd.org/publications/books/109074/chapters/How-Poverty-Affects-Behavior-and-Academic-Performance.aspx http://www.ascd.org/publications/books/109074/chapters/How-P... Also, as trustfundbaby said earlier in the thread: "Group success in America often tends to dissipate after two generations. Thus while Asian-American kids overall had SAT scores 143 points above average in 2012 — including a 63-point edge over whites — a 2005 study of over 20,000 adolescents found that third-generation Asian-American students performed no better academically than white students" I don't doubt that there is a significant Asian culture effect, but in this case it seems that the "immigrant effect" plays a big, if not greater role.

trustfundbaby 12y ago

> An Asian student from a family earning $0-10k has a higher average SAT math score than a black student from a family earning $70k+. This is true but heres something to consider, my feeling is that Asian Americans are what I consider newer immigrants to America. My understanding is that they actually started to come here in large numbers after 1965 when the Immigration and Nationality Act Amendments eliminated racial/nationality-based discrimination in immigration quotas. Why is this important? I think that you'll find that if you compare the SAT scores of Asian Americans to recent black immigrants to the United States (Nigerians, Ghanaians and jamaicans for example), you might find that their scores are much closer than your initial comparison. The reason for that is what I call the immigrant effect ... explained by this quote from a David Brooks NY Times article http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/26/opinion/sunday/what-drives-success.html?hp&rref=opinion&_r=2&referrer=&assetType=nyt_now http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/26/opinion/sunday/what-drives... "Group success in America often tends to dissipate after two generations. Thus while Asian-American kids overall had SAT scores 143 points above average in 2012 — including a 63-point edge over whites — a 2005 study of over 20,000 adolescents found that third-generation Asian-American students performed no better academically than white students"

yummyfajitas 12y ago
My only point is that parental income is not driving force behind racial achievement gaps. Perhaps immigrant status is the driving force behind the Asian/Black and Asian/White gaps. But then what causes the Asian/Mexican gap? Also, if you have data showing Nigerian/Ghanaian/Jamaican immigrants do as well as Asians, or the original source for Amy Chua's data, I'd love to see it.
- trustfundbaby 12y ago
  > My only point is that parental income is not driving force behind racial achievement gaps I wish I had more data for you, but how could it not be? Better incomes means better homes, in better neighorhoods, betters schools and access to the kind of environments suitable for realizing full educational potential of a child. With the notable exception of blacks who as noted in the American Life episode 'house rules' "The average African-American household making $75,000 a year or more, that family lives in a poorer neighborhood than the average white family making less than $40,000 a year. That is, a black family making twice as much money as a white family probably still lives in a poorer neighborhood. That's according to a study from Brown University." http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/512/transcript http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/512/t... which means that the access to better education of what I said above, probably doesn't apply to the same degree for blacks as it does for others. > Also, if you have data showing Nigerian/Ghanaian/Jamaican immigrants do as well as Asians, or the original source for Amy Chua's data, I'd love to see it. I wish I did, but I don't. I took an African American Studies class years ago with a source, but I didn't save it :\ > But then what causes the Asian/Mexican gap? That I'm not sure of. Definitely plan to do a bit more reading around that
  - yummyfajitas 12y ago
    ...how could it not be? You suggest one possible way it could be true - black families with money choose not to spend it on things that you believe improve outcomes, and asians spend their money on these things even more. This seems unlikely since the curve relating black outcomes to black income is upward sloping just like all the other curves. Another possibility: "better homes, better neighborhoods, better schools" don't actually improve outcomes. Some hidden factor X might be causing both higher income, better homes, better schools, and better outcomes.

epsylon 12y ago

Bringing up things like poverty or parental education is a red herring. An Asian student from a family earning $0-10k has a higher average SAT math score than a black student from a family earning $70k+. I disagree that this is a red herring. Children of wealthy parents perform better academically, plain and simple, across all races, gender, immigrant status or not. (This is true everywhere in the world.) The fact that first-gen immigrant children might perform better due is simply due to a sampling bias.

pc86 12y ago
You really can't just throw your hands in the air and say "No, that's sampling bias." Do you have a source to support your claim?
- epsylon 12y ago
  A bit late on my answer, but this is a well-studied phenomenon: http://www.brookings.edu/research/reports/2011/12/15-school-readiness-isaacs http://www.brookings.edu/research/reports/2011/12/15-school-... http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/10/education/education-gap-grows-between-rich-and-poor-studies-show.html?pagewanted=all http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/10/education/education-gap-gr... http://www.ascd.org/publications/books/109074/chapters/How-Poverty-Affects-Behavior-and-Academic-Performance.aspx http://www.ascd.org/publications/books/109074/chapters/How-P... Also, as trustfundbaby said earlier in the thread: "Group success in America often tends to dissipate after two generations. Thus while Asian-American kids overall had SAT scores 143 points above average in 2012 — including a 63-point edge over whites — a 2005 study of over 20,000 adolescents found that third-generation Asian-American students performed no better academically than white students" I don't doubt that there is a significant Asian culture effect, but in this case it seems that the "immigrant effect" plays a big, if not greater role.