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That doesn’t really make sense, does it? Why do you believe that someone who says something sexist (or racist) is not actually sexist (or racist)? I see no reas

• imgabe 12y ago
  They're not cruel because they're sexist, they're sexist because they're cruel.
  • arrrg 12y ago
    How can you know that? That seems like wishful thinking to me.
    • enraged_camel 12y ago
      I think what he is trying to say is that their cruelty manifests as sexism. As in, they perceive the target's sex as the lowest-hanging fruit that they can attack, and they know it is likely to hurt the target, so they go for it. It's like making fun of someone because they are short. That doesn't make someone a "shortist." It just shows that they are cruel human beings. I see sexism as more of a fundamental belief. As in, the person went through some thought process that they think is logical, and they have reached a conclusion (that they think as logical) that women are inferior to men. This then comes out in their behavior even when the intention is not to cause harm. It's an attitude that exists independently of cruelty.
      • arrrg 12y ago
        Again, how do you know that? That seems to be wishful thinking. Also, the end result is the same, either way. The intent doesn’t really matter all that much, if only because the mindset of someone going to sexism or racism to be cruel is seriously fucked up. I’m certainly not racist or sexist when I want to be cruel to other people, even if I’m extremely angry and willing to say a lot to hurt the other person. Going there wouldn’t even cross my mind. (I tend to go for age, I think. That exposes my own ageism, something I still have to deal with. I don’t think that’s ok, either, and I also think being ageist is not ok.)
        • imgabe 12y ago
          So, your working hypothesis based on that comment is that they're an otherwise friendly and fair-minded person, but when they see that a woman wrote a blog about programming they feel the need to go out of their way to write a comment telling them to stfu? Anything's possible, I guess. But, based on my particular lifetime of experience with people, jerks are usually jerks in multiple aspects of their life.
          • arrrg 12y ago
            I mean, sure, of course. But they are still being sexist.
            • afarrell 12y ago
              Hence, "they are sexist because they are cruel."
              • arrrg 12y ago
                But that to me seems like a distinction without a difference.
                • imgabe 12y ago
                  You can be cruel without being sexist, and you can be sexist without being cruel. Every time sexism comes up, comments like this get trotted out. These people are bottom-feeders. They have no ability to affect anything in their own life, so they make hurtful comments on the internet to try and affect others, just so they can feel like they're in control of something. Stamping out sexism isn't going to stop them from doing that. They're not reading these articles or these comments. If they are, they're just happy that someone is paying attention to them. I think there are far bigger fish to fry when it comes to fighting sexism than going after some basement-dwelling mouth-breathers who don't actually matter. You could actually focus on normal, good-intentioned people who have just been brought up in a culture of sexism and would happily change if it were pointed out to them how they're hurting others. edit: I shouldn't say they "don't matter" as I've never been on the receiving end of it, and it probably matters a great deal when you are. I just meant that the ability of these people to affect someone's life beyond making hurtful comments on the Internet is minimal.
      • chc 12y ago
        The idea that somebody must have logically thought about sexism before they can be sexist is bizarre. If I just feel in my gut that women are inferior and never give it any further thought, how on earth is that not sexist?
        • enraged_camel 12y ago
          I didn't say "logically." I said they thought it was a logical thought process, whereas what really happened is that they made their decision first ("women are inferior") based on some gut feeling, and then rationalized it.
    • waterlesscloud 12y ago
      I'm not sure I can see a belief that some people are inherently cruel enough to use whatever attack is available to them as "wishful thinking".
• potatolicious 12y ago
  They're real-life trolls. They may not actually believe the things they say, but they say them because they know it will upset you. In some ways these people scare me more than actual sexists/racists/whateverists, because they're not ignorant, they just take joy in suffering, and actively manipulate people in such a way that maximizes chaos and pain. That mindset concerns me much more than someone who actually believes women/blacks/minority_group are inferior.
  • arrrg 12y ago
    I’m honestly not willing to make that distinction. I don’t care about intent, I care about what someone says.
    • potatolicious 12y ago
      I think the distinction of intent is important, though it certainly doesn't excuse the words. Someone who is saying something sexist out of ignorance can be reached out to, possibly brought over to the right side with reason and the right approach. Someone who is saying it even though they know they're wrong, just to get a rise out of people, is sociopathic, and engaging with them would be a waste of time. In other words, some people are bigots of circumstance - having been born, raised in a time and place, or otherwise exposed to certain views at certain moments. They can become allies, or at least brought to a position that isn't firmly bigoted. I think it's worthwhile to recognize the difference if only for the pragmatic purpose of knowing which arguments might be worthwhile and which are clear wastes of time.
  • prawn 12y ago
    I don't think the majority stop and think "How can I upset this person?" otherwise we'd see males cop it from males a lot more. I think it happens on a more instinctive level. e.g., "That person is a different gender or race to me so I must attack" and something emotional is a quick and easy thoughtless option.
  • fallinghawks 12y ago
    Agreed, but I suspect trolls do to some extent agree/believe. If they actively were against it, they wouldn't say it (or at least I certainly hope so). What concerns me is the casualness with which trolls threaten rape/death/other violence behind the anonymity of the internet; the more frequently this behavior is seen, the more normalized it becomes.
• npizzolato 12y ago
  That's ridiculous. Of course intent matters. I would hope you take someone's intent into account anytime you perceive some slight. Otherwise you're just making the problem worse, elevating everything to a 10. The end result of not caring about intent are ridiculous "zero tolerance" policies.