7 ms·

How We Measure

46 points by Flenser 12y ago

rb2k_ 12y ago
Maybe slightly off topic to the post, semi related to their idea of an "active" customer: I really like the way simple presents themselves. I don't think I'll join them any time soon though. The incentive to use a 3rd party credit card is way too strong. I get things like cash back (depending on the card, up to 6% for e.g. groceries, 3% on gas, ...) and it helps building my credit score which the debit transactions on simple won't help with at all. I do like Fee-Free ATMs, but on both of my current checking accounts (e.g. Charles Schwab) I don't have to try to find a special one that, judging from the map, usually means a 10 minute walk. I can just go to any ATM since there are quite a few banks that will reimburse costs for ANY of them. Photo Check Deposit is pretty standard these days as well, both my local bank as well as Charles Schwab had apps that allow me to do that. Most of the integration that simple provides (the "budgeting" part) , I probably also get with Mint. Only that Mint actually takes ALL of my accounts (Brokerage, Credit cards, ...) into account. Besides that, the last time I checked they only accepted “Type 1 Social Security Numbers”. Sadly, as a resident alien, I only have a type 2 number (“for work”). This seemed a bit strange since pretty much every other financial institution didn't care about the specific type of SSN so far. I didn't even know there were different ones. They mention on twitter that they've "processed a few exceptions", it would probably still be very inconvenient.
- ganeumann 12y ago
  You understand that the "rewards" you get when you use a credit card are somehow paid for by you yourself, in spades? Visa posted a profit of $1.6 BILLION for the first QUARTER of this year. That's your reward, right there, watching them make their oligopoly profits off of you. I meet founders quite often who think they can get their customers to use their product because it is a better deal for the customer. Unfortunately, many of these ideas are not viable because of the way many people focus on short-term gains rather than all-in, lifetime cost. It's too bad that many (most?) people would rather have some immediate gratification from a company that intends to screw them at the first opportunity than a long-term better proposition from a company that is trying to help them. A great example with Simple is when people say they're sticking with their higher-interest account at a traditional bank. While finding the highest interest rate may appeal to their competitive instinct, the extra 0.5% or so on an average balance of even a couple thousand dollars does not even begin to make up for the surprise fees the bank charges when that person makes a mistake. The usual rebuttal is "Well, I don't make mistakes." The revenue split between fees and net interest margins at the retail banks shows that this is just not true, on average. The argument, then, must be that YOU don't make mistakes because you're better than everyone else. That's just an unattractive attitude. Someone should build some wearable tech that whenever you make an irrational decision, it beeps angrily at you. </rant>
  - jawns 12y ago
    I was with you until you got to the part about the usual rebuttal. So you're saying that the average person makes mistakes that result in bank fees, and so anyone who doesn't or seldom makes mistakes that result in bank fees must think they're better than everyone else and have an unattractive attitude? And how does an unattractive attitude equal an irrational decision?
    - ganeumann 12y ago
      1. It's like saying "I don't need auto insurance because I never have accidents." That may be true, so far, and you may be a careful driver, but it's still irrational (that's why they call them accidents, after all.) Insurance against low-probability, high-cost events is rational. (In this case, it's even worse than insuring yourself because insurers make money when you don't have an accident, banks make money when you do, so the incentives are totally misaligned: banks actively try to make it hard for you not to screw up.) 2. If you have a couple of thousand dollars in the bank and you're getting an extra 0.5% on your interest, that's $10 per year. That's far less than the time-cost of just reading your bank's fee schedule every time they change it. The fact is, retail banks make most of their money by charging fees which come as a surprise to the people who pay them. Those people would avoid these fees if they could do so in a reasonable way. Comments that imply that this is not so have to be either misleading, irrational, or just not generally applicable. I went with irrational as the most charitable reason.
  - opendais 12y ago
    You are so very, very wrong. They make money off of interchange fees and carried balances. These "rewards" are rewards for the consumer if you: 1) Never carry a balance 2) Pay the same price as cash and the merchant eats the fees [as most merchants do!] Its perfectly rational if you make fewer mistakes on average. So far, in the 10 years of using credit cards, I've recovered about 2% of every dollar I've ever spent and never carried a balance. This amounts to half a paycheck. Its perfectly rational to assume that my rate of 'error' will remain roughly the same as it has been historically and that I want to continue to use credit cards and force merchants to effectively give me a larger discount that they would otherwise.
- dominotw 12y ago
  I have type 2 ssn and I am a simple customer. I am not sure how that worked though.
ericcholis 12y ago
Slightly off-topic, but can any current Simple customers comment on their experience with the service? Their marketing is makes the service very appealing, I'd like some real world experiences though.
- mrcwinn 12y ago
  Simple customer here. I've been very satisfied with their customer service. I've been very satisfied with the fact that there haven't, to date, been "surprise fees." I've never been charged any kind of fee for using the service. I like their goals system, too. Tiny bits of money leave your main account (it's still usable though, in case you spend more than is in your perceived "balance"). You end up saving money without noticing it, which is nice. Other little moments where you interact with the bank are better: getting a replacement card, for example, is very easy and fast. Downsides: - The money you save isn't earning any real interest, though that's nothing different from a typical savings account. - It's impossible to get cash into your account. I generally don't use cash very often, so this isn't a huge problem - but every so often, it's been incredibly annoying. Forget about ATMs, too. I can't use my Simple card at an ATM without paying a big fee. There are some fee-free Simple ATMs through a partner, but I've never found a convenient one. - If you have an especially large check to deposit, good luck! The mobile scan limit of, say, $3,000 is not unique to Simple - but what is unique is that you have no branch to walk into. That being said, I've had such horrible experiences with BofA, I'm happy to not have a branch. Is my mind blown by Simple? Not really. It's fine. I like it. On the other hand, I can't say I've ever been a fuming, angry customer in front of Simple - and I can't say the same for most of my other banking experiences. One alternative to consider: I've heard Capital One 360 is nice and comparable.
  - ssharp 12y ago
    I signed up for a Simple account when my turn on their wait list came up, but I quickly realized that there were too many limitations for me. The app and interfaces are nice, but some of the things you mentioned were ultimately deal-breakers. I have to deal with checks over 3k more than once a year and also have the occasional cash transaction of over $2,000. And that goes both ways, where I need to withdraw over $1,000 cash on occasion. At the time, they also didn't allow for joint accounts. I don't know if that has changed yet. I ultimately switched over to PNC because they have good branch and ATM coverage in my area and although their mobile app and web interface cannot touch Simple, they were substantially better than my previous bank's offerings. Someone told me that Charles Schwab checking accounts, although also virtual, reimburse all ATM fees. According to this person, that includes ridiculous fees like $20 at "gentleman's clubs".
caidan 12y ago
I like Simple and I wish them success. I don't like them because of their fantastic app and website, or excellent human customer service, but because after many years of abuse at the hands of Bank of America I wanted a bank that does not aggressively pursue Non Interest Income (ie fees, usually overdraft) as a major source of revenue. Simple states very clearly on their faq[0] page that they make money off of interest and interchange fees, not punitive and arguably immoral fees like those imposed by the large mainstreet banks. Head over to this reddit thread[1] from this morning that discusses what it's like to work for these banks: "[the customer who was mistakenly charged the fee] struggles from week to week with finances, and needs every dollar more than the rich customers who treat us like shit yet the managers kiss their asses. It wasn't the customers fault at all yet they have to suffer". All of the large banks are ruthless predators on the weakest of our societies, gouging their customers with an ever evolving scheme of fees and debt incentives to ensnare, entrap and exsanguinate those who can least afford it. They are involved in price fixing scandals of the highest order, are beyond the reach of the law no matter the transgression, and seem to hold the sum total of our shared societies in contempt. Apparently there is very little that can be done at this point, the horse as long since bolted, but at the bare minimum I'll be god damned if I give them a dime I don't have to. Simple enables me to bank as usual without continuing to participate in that abusive relationship, and for that, I like them. [0] https://www.simple.com/faq/ https://www.simple.com/faq/ [1] http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/26qpcq/redditors_who_work_for_a_company_everybody_hates/ http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/26qpcq/redditors_...
bicknergseng 12y ago
From the Quartz article linked: "If it was after technology alone, BBVA could have built a platform in a few months for half a million dollars, [banking consultant Serge Milman] says." I know this was probably hyperbole of the cuff, but it seems rather unlikely that any bank, institutions that are non-tech focused, could develop the same tech as a tech startup like Simple or Mint in a few months for a half million bucks. Pretty classic "ignorant of the true cost and complexity of software" attitude.

46 points by Flenser 12y ago

rb2k_ 12y ago

Maybe slightly off topic to the post, semi related to their idea of an "active" customer: I really like the way simple presents themselves. I don't think I'll join them any time soon though. The incentive to use a 3rd party credit card is way too strong. I get things like cash back (depending on the card, up to 6% for e.g. groceries, 3% on gas, ...) and it helps building my credit score which the debit transactions on simple won't help with at all. I do like Fee-Free ATMs, but on both of my current checking accounts (e.g. Charles Schwab) I don't have to try to find a special one that, judging from the map, usually means a 10 minute walk. I can just go to any ATM since there are quite a few banks that will reimburse costs for ANY of them. Photo Check Deposit is pretty standard these days as well, both my local bank as well as Charles Schwab had apps that allow me to do that. Most of the integration that simple provides (the "budgeting" part) , I probably also get with Mint. Only that Mint actually takes ALL of my accounts (Brokerage, Credit cards, ...) into account. Besides that, the last time I checked they only accepted “Type 1 Social Security Numbers”. Sadly, as a resident alien, I only have a type 2 number (“for work”). This seemed a bit strange since pretty much every other financial institution didn't care about the specific type of SSN so far. I didn't even know there were different ones. They mention on twitter that they've "processed a few exceptions", it would probably still be very inconvenient.

ganeumann 12y ago
You understand that the "rewards" you get when you use a credit card are somehow paid for by you yourself, in spades? Visa posted a profit of $1.6 BILLION for the first QUARTER of this year. That's your reward, right there, watching them make their oligopoly profits off of you. I meet founders quite often who think they can get their customers to use their product because it is a better deal for the customer. Unfortunately, many of these ideas are not viable because of the way many people focus on short-term gains rather than all-in, lifetime cost. It's too bad that many (most?) people would rather have some immediate gratification from a company that intends to screw them at the first opportunity than a long-term better proposition from a company that is trying to help them. A great example with Simple is when people say they're sticking with their higher-interest account at a traditional bank. While finding the highest interest rate may appeal to their competitive instinct, the extra 0.5% or so on an average balance of even a couple thousand dollars does not even begin to make up for the surprise fees the bank charges when that person makes a mistake. The usual rebuttal is "Well, I don't make mistakes." The revenue split between fees and net interest margins at the retail banks shows that this is just not true, on average. The argument, then, must be that YOU don't make mistakes because you're better than everyone else. That's just an unattractive attitude. Someone should build some wearable tech that whenever you make an irrational decision, it beeps angrily at you. </rant>
- jawns 12y ago
  I was with you until you got to the part about the usual rebuttal. So you're saying that the average person makes mistakes that result in bank fees, and so anyone who doesn't or seldom makes mistakes that result in bank fees must think they're better than everyone else and have an unattractive attitude? And how does an unattractive attitude equal an irrational decision?
  - ganeumann 12y ago
    1. It's like saying "I don't need auto insurance because I never have accidents." That may be true, so far, and you may be a careful driver, but it's still irrational (that's why they call them accidents, after all.) Insurance against low-probability, high-cost events is rational. (In this case, it's even worse than insuring yourself because insurers make money when you don't have an accident, banks make money when you do, so the incentives are totally misaligned: banks actively try to make it hard for you not to screw up.) 2. If you have a couple of thousand dollars in the bank and you're getting an extra 0.5% on your interest, that's $10 per year. That's far less than the time-cost of just reading your bank's fee schedule every time they change it. The fact is, retail banks make most of their money by charging fees which come as a surprise to the people who pay them. Those people would avoid these fees if they could do so in a reasonable way. Comments that imply that this is not so have to be either misleading, irrational, or just not generally applicable. I went with irrational as the most charitable reason.
- opendais 12y ago
  You are so very, very wrong. They make money off of interchange fees and carried balances. These "rewards" are rewards for the consumer if you: 1) Never carry a balance 2) Pay the same price as cash and the merchant eats the fees [as most merchants do!] Its perfectly rational if you make fewer mistakes on average. So far, in the 10 years of using credit cards, I've recovered about 2% of every dollar I've ever spent and never carried a balance. This amounts to half a paycheck. Its perfectly rational to assume that my rate of 'error' will remain roughly the same as it has been historically and that I want to continue to use credit cards and force merchants to effectively give me a larger discount that they would otherwise.
dominotw 12y ago
I have type 2 ssn and I am a simple customer. I am not sure how that worked though.

ericcholis 12y ago

Slightly off-topic, but can any current Simple customers comment on their experience with the service? Their marketing is makes the service very appealing, I'd like some real world experiences though.

mrcwinn 12y ago
Simple customer here. I've been very satisfied with their customer service. I've been very satisfied with the fact that there haven't, to date, been "surprise fees." I've never been charged any kind of fee for using the service. I like their goals system, too. Tiny bits of money leave your main account (it's still usable though, in case you spend more than is in your perceived "balance"). You end up saving money without noticing it, which is nice. Other little moments where you interact with the bank are better: getting a replacement card, for example, is very easy and fast. Downsides: - The money you save isn't earning any real interest, though that's nothing different from a typical savings account. - It's impossible to get cash into your account. I generally don't use cash very often, so this isn't a huge problem - but every so often, it's been incredibly annoying. Forget about ATMs, too. I can't use my Simple card at an ATM without paying a big fee. There are some fee-free Simple ATMs through a partner, but I've never found a convenient one. - If you have an especially large check to deposit, good luck! The mobile scan limit of, say, $3,000 is not unique to Simple - but what is unique is that you have no branch to walk into. That being said, I've had such horrible experiences with BofA, I'm happy to not have a branch. Is my mind blown by Simple? Not really. It's fine. I like it. On the other hand, I can't say I've ever been a fuming, angry customer in front of Simple - and I can't say the same for most of my other banking experiences. One alternative to consider: I've heard Capital One 360 is nice and comparable.
- ssharp 12y ago
  I signed up for a Simple account when my turn on their wait list came up, but I quickly realized that there were too many limitations for me. The app and interfaces are nice, but some of the things you mentioned were ultimately deal-breakers. I have to deal with checks over 3k more than once a year and also have the occasional cash transaction of over $2,000. And that goes both ways, where I need to withdraw over $1,000 cash on occasion. At the time, they also didn't allow for joint accounts. I don't know if that has changed yet. I ultimately switched over to PNC because they have good branch and ATM coverage in my area and although their mobile app and web interface cannot touch Simple, they were substantially better than my previous bank's offerings. Someone told me that Charles Schwab checking accounts, although also virtual, reimburse all ATM fees. According to this person, that includes ridiculous fees like $20 at "gentleman's clubs".

caidan 12y ago

I like Simple and I wish them success. I don't like them because of their fantastic app and website, or excellent human customer service, but because after many years of abuse at the hands of Bank of America I wanted a bank that does not aggressively pursue Non Interest Income (ie fees, usually overdraft) as a major source of revenue. Simple states very clearly on their faq[0] page that they make money off of interest and interchange fees, not punitive and arguably immoral fees like those imposed by the large mainstreet banks. Head over to this reddit thread[1] from this morning that discusses what it's like to work for these banks: "[the customer who was mistakenly charged the fee] struggles from week to week with finances, and needs every dollar more than the rich customers who treat us like shit yet the managers kiss their asses. It wasn't the customers fault at all yet they have to suffer". All of the large banks are ruthless predators on the weakest of our societies, gouging their customers with an ever evolving scheme of fees and debt incentives to ensnare, entrap and exsanguinate those who can least afford it. They are involved in price fixing scandals of the highest order, are beyond the reach of the law no matter the transgression, and seem to hold the sum total of our shared societies in contempt. Apparently there is very little that can be done at this point, the horse as long since bolted, but at the bare minimum I'll be god damned if I give them a dime I don't have to. Simple enables me to bank as usual without continuing to participate in that abusive relationship, and for that, I like them. [0] https://www.simple.com/faq/ https://www.simple.com/faq/ [1] http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/26qpcq/redditors_who_work_for_a_company_everybody_hates/ http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/26qpcq/redditors_...

bicknergseng 12y ago

From the Quartz article linked: "If it was after technology alone, BBVA could have built a platform in a few months for half a million dollars, [banking consultant Serge Milman] says." I know this was probably hyperbole of the cuff, but it seems rather unlikely that any bank, institutions that are non-tech focused, could develop the same tech as a tech startup like Simple or Mint in a few months for a half million bucks. Pretty classic "ignorant of the true cost and complexity of software" attitude.