6 ms·

My response was flippant, which is probably why some people have been downvoting it, but I'm legitimately glad if they're working to make their hiring pool more

by Torgo 12y ago

My response was flippant, which is probably why some people have been downvoting it, but I'm legitimately glad if they're working to make their hiring pool more representative of the population. But at the same time, it's hardly their fault or responsibility to "fix" it if universities just aren't graduating people in those proportions. This came right after I'd read a PBS article that claimed "Google finally discloses its diversity record, and it’s not good." Then I read a breakdown of CS grads in this submission, and Google seems to be pretty representative.

dragonwriter 12y ago
> My response was flippant, which is probably why some people have been downvoting it, but I'm legitimately glad if they're working to make their hiring pool more representative of the population. But at the same time, it's hardly their fault or responsibility to "fix" it if universities just aren't graduating people in those proportions. If they have reasons to prefer a diverse workforce, whether or not they are at fault for the lack of a sufficiently diverse qualified applicant pool, it is their responsibility to fix it.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- waveman2 12y ago
  > it is their responsibility to fix it. This seems to contain two embedded and unexamined assumptions. 1. That this is a problem. If women prefer not to go into sciency fields (other than biology) why is that inherently a problem? Do you think women are too dumb to make their own choices? 2. That it can reasonably be "fixed". Spending more money on education must be the most commonly employed and most universally failed intervention in social policy. I would also question the premise of the posting, that "diversity" in terms of race and sex is a highly desirable thing. The evidence for this is very thin, and indeed more ethnically diverse communities tend to have lower levels of trust and social capital. There is some evidence that diversity in terms of viewpoint and skills is useful but just eg having more white women in the office may not be the great boon people assume.
  - dragonwriter 12y ago
    #1 was not an "embedded an unexamined assumption", it was the explicit condition of the stated conditional. ("If they have reasons to prefer a diverse workforce...") #2 is, insofar as it appears to be an "embedded and unexamined assumption", simply a result of brevity in omitting "...insofar as doing so is practical without costs that make it a net loss" at the end. Obvious qualification is obvious. > I would also question the premise of the posting, that "diversity" in terms of race and sex is a highly desirable thing. "Desirable" is subjective. Google expressly claims to value that kind of diversity. Obviously, you might have different values, which, to the extent that the means you choose to pursue them are not themselves illegal, you are free to pursue in your own company. > The evidence for this is very thin The evidence is actually very strong that its a thing that some people value independently of whether it contributes to any other thing that they value.
    - paulwolf 12y ago
      >Obvious qualification is obvious. Don't form arguments this way. Dumping tautologies into an argument sounds childish.
      - dragonwriter 12y ago
        The quoted bit that you object to wasn't part of an argument in the first place.
    - girvo 12y ago
      I agree with you. But "you are free to do them in your own company" seems to be less and less true, as the amount of shaming hit pieces in the media rise. Whether that's a good thing, I pass no judgements on. It's interesting watching a community's values change in real time.
      - dragonwriter 12y ago
        Freedom to do something doesn't imply freedom from criticism from people who disagree with you doing it.
groby_b 12y ago
No, it's not Google's job, but Google is in a good position to fix upstream. One of the things you repeatedly hear from girls/young women considering CS is that there are no role models. Sending female engineers to university events is a small step, but it can have huge impact. In a nutshell, it's playing the long game :)
- cbhl 12y ago
  I'm not sure I would want to take this to its logical conclusion. Imagine if it was mandated that every female engineer had to participate in university events. Now the job responsibilities are different between the genders, and you've made the problem worse on a different axis (equality of job responsibilities). Think about all the articles and blog posts written by female engineers who attend conferences and are insulted that they are perceived to be non-technical, or just a recruiter, and how such an initiative would make that worse.
  - eropple 12y ago
    Do you seriously think they don't have a surfeit of volunteers? C'mon.
    - paulwolf 12y ago
      Probably not. It's usually difficult to get an engineer to waste an entire day or two visiting a university for recruiting.
      - ithkuil 12y ago
        You'd be surprised.
      - jtheory 12y ago
        Hey, next Friday is Google's "make the world a better place" day... would you be interested in coming with me and (name) to give mini-talks at a few schools? -- I guess you'd have a tougher time if you actually call it "wasting an entire day" when you pitch the idea.
thaumasiotes 12y ago
> I'm legitimately glad if they're working to make their hiring pool more representative of the population What is the benefit of this?
- virtue3 12y ago
  because programming is the new reading. The sooner we get everyone on board with that the faster we can start automating things and changing the world. Also because I for one am very sick of dealing with all the brogrammers in SF :/
  - paulwolf 12y ago
    I don't understand this sentiment. Once something is automated by one person, that same work can apply to everyone. There is no reason everyone needs the skills to do that. It's the same with any other skill. "statistical analysis is the new reading. the sooner we get everyone on board with that the faster we can start new scientific experiments and change the world." Reading is special because it's required to take in new knowledge and communicate quickly.
    - eurleif 12y ago
      Automated processes can be customized.

by Torgo 12y ago

dragonwriter 12y ago

> My response was flippant, which is probably why some people have been downvoting it, but I'm legitimately glad if they're working to make their hiring pool more representative of the population. But at the same time, it's hardly their fault or responsibility to "fix" it if universities just aren't graduating people in those proportions. If they have reasons to prefer a diverse workforce, whether or not they are at fault for the lack of a sufficiently diverse qualified applicant pool, it is their responsibility to fix it.

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
waveman2 12y ago
> it is their responsibility to fix it. This seems to contain two embedded and unexamined assumptions. 1. That this is a problem. If women prefer not to go into sciency fields (other than biology) why is that inherently a problem? Do you think women are too dumb to make their own choices? 2. That it can reasonably be "fixed". Spending more money on education must be the most commonly employed and most universally failed intervention in social policy. I would also question the premise of the posting, that "diversity" in terms of race and sex is a highly desirable thing. The evidence for this is very thin, and indeed more ethnically diverse communities tend to have lower levels of trust and social capital. There is some evidence that diversity in terms of viewpoint and skills is useful but just eg having more white women in the office may not be the great boon people assume.
- dragonwriter 12y ago
  #1 was not an "embedded an unexamined assumption", it was the explicit condition of the stated conditional. ("If they have reasons to prefer a diverse workforce...") #2 is, insofar as it appears to be an "embedded and unexamined assumption", simply a result of brevity in omitting "...insofar as doing so is practical without costs that make it a net loss" at the end. Obvious qualification is obvious. > I would also question the premise of the posting, that "diversity" in terms of race and sex is a highly desirable thing. "Desirable" is subjective. Google expressly claims to value that kind of diversity. Obviously, you might have different values, which, to the extent that the means you choose to pursue them are not themselves illegal, you are free to pursue in your own company. > The evidence for this is very thin The evidence is actually very strong that its a thing that some people value independently of whether it contributes to any other thing that they value.
  - paulwolf 12y ago
    >Obvious qualification is obvious. Don't form arguments this way. Dumping tautologies into an argument sounds childish.
    - dragonwriter 12y ago
      The quoted bit that you object to wasn't part of an argument in the first place.
  - girvo 12y ago
    I agree with you. But "you are free to do them in your own company" seems to be less and less true, as the amount of shaming hit pieces in the media rise. Whether that's a good thing, I pass no judgements on. It's interesting watching a community's values change in real time.
    - dragonwriter 12y ago
      Freedom to do something doesn't imply freedom from criticism from people who disagree with you doing it.

groby_b 12y ago

No, it's not Google's job, but Google is in a good position to fix upstream. One of the things you repeatedly hear from girls/young women considering CS is that there are no role models. Sending female engineers to university events is a small step, but it can have huge impact. In a nutshell, it's playing the long game :)

cbhl 12y ago
I'm not sure I would want to take this to its logical conclusion. Imagine if it was mandated that every female engineer had to participate in university events. Now the job responsibilities are different between the genders, and you've made the problem worse on a different axis (equality of job responsibilities). Think about all the articles and blog posts written by female engineers who attend conferences and are insulted that they are perceived to be non-technical, or just a recruiter, and how such an initiative would make that worse.
- eropple 12y ago
  Do you seriously think they don't have a surfeit of volunteers? C'mon.
  - paulwolf 12y ago
    Probably not. It's usually difficult to get an engineer to waste an entire day or two visiting a university for recruiting.
    - ithkuil 12y ago
      You'd be surprised.
    - jtheory 12y ago
      Hey, next Friday is Google's "make the world a better place" day... would you be interested in coming with me and (name) to give mini-talks at a few schools? -- I guess you'd have a tougher time if you actually call it "wasting an entire day" when you pitch the idea.

thaumasiotes 12y ago

> I'm legitimately glad if they're working to make their hiring pool more representative of the population What is the benefit of this?

virtue3 12y ago
because programming is the new reading. The sooner we get everyone on board with that the faster we can start automating things and changing the world. Also because I for one am very sick of dealing with all the brogrammers in SF :/
- paulwolf 12y ago
  I don't understand this sentiment. Once something is automated by one person, that same work can apply to everyone. There is no reason everyone needs the skills to do that. It's the same with any other skill. "statistical analysis is the new reading. the sooner we get everyone on board with that the faster we can start new scientific experiments and change the world." Reading is special because it's required to take in new knowledge and communicate quickly.
  - eurleif 12y ago
    Automated processes can be customized.