7 ms·

As a Google employee, the reasons I hear is that we'd like the diversity of our workforce to more accurately reflect the diversity of our users, so we can serve

As a Google employee, the reasons I hear is that we'd like the diversity of our workforce to more accurately reflect the diversity of our users, so we can serve them better.

Dwolb 12y ago
I think this is a very interesting response. If it's true, then their diversity goal will be reached when the makeup of Google workforce is representative of the world population (assuming world population correlates well with Google user population). Therefore, focusing on bringing more women in to tech is a very good goal since women may make up 50% of Google users. Secondary and third goals would be to hire more representatives from Asia and Africa
justicezyx 12y ago
So that's way Google exited China, right? ...
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
- nl 12y ago
  Does this mean we should empose[sic] quotas to get Blacks out of the NFL and replace them with Whites No to the quotas. But yes, race in the NFL (and in many sports) is an issue that should be addressed. The old problem of the low proportion of black quarterbacks is slowly being addressed, and the Rooney Rule[1] has had some success with the underrepresentation of black coaches. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rooney_Rule http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rooney_Rule
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
    - nl 12y ago
      It sounds to me like you believe that some ethnic groups have intrinsic (genetic) advantages over others in some areas. Like most things to do with race there is a tiny, tiny sliver of truth in this, but not enough to explain the outcomes. sigh Lets look at sports. Sprints: The ACTN3 gene[1] is associated with the fast-twitch muscles, and is more prevalent in people of West African descent. Out of the last 7 Olympic 100m mens finals all 56 finalists have been of West African descent. Only 2 out of the top 500 100m race times are by people without African descent. Case closed? No. The proportion of sprint wins by West Africans is much higher than the prevalence of the ACTN3 gene would explain, and other power sports (notably weight lifting) are dominated by other ethnic groups with a more average distribution of the gene. Distance running: The Kalenjin tribe (mostly from Kenya) has dominated distance running since the late 1990s. Most of their competition has come from Ethiopian runners and the occasional North African (especially in the women's events)[2]. They do have a genetic advantage: they tend to be very skinny, with long legs and short torsos. But you can find these attributes in any population group. More surprising is that elite non-African runners performance has decreased over time: For example, of the top 10 Marathon times by British athletes only 1 (in 8th position) is since 2000, and 6 are pre 1990 (including the 2 fastest times). This indicates something else is going on, that can't just be explained by genetics. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ACTN3 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ACTN3 [2] http://www.iaaf.org/records/toplists/road-running/marathon/outdoor/men/senior http://www.iaaf.org/records/toplists/road-running/marathon/o... - the best place person without a African heritige is Ronaldo Da Costa at 57.
      - thaumasiotes 12y ago
        > Lets look at sports. > Sprints: The ACTN3 gene[1] is associated with the fast-twitch muscles, and is more prevalent in people of West African descent. Out of the last 7 Olympic 100m mens finals all 56 finalists have been of West African descent. Only 2 out of the top 500 100m race times are by people without African descent. > Case closed? No. The proportion of sprint wins by West Africans is much higher than the prevalence of the ACTN3 gene would explain, and other power sports (notably weight lifting) are dominated by other ethnic groups with a more average distribution of the gene. It's hard not to conclude that you're purposefully trying to fool someone here. It never occurred to you that more than one gene might be involved in sprinting?
  - thaumasiotes 12y ago
    This is a truly comical response. To you, the only obvious racial characteristics of the NFL are (1) Not enough black quarterbacks (2) Not enough black coaches and those are issues that need to be addressed? How is the low proportion of black quarterbacks a bigger problem than the ultra-low proportion of white non-quarterbacks?
    - nl 12y ago
      How is the low proportion of black quarterbacks a bigger problem than the ultra-low proportion of white non-quarterbacks? It would be if there was any other indication of discrimination against whites than the numbers. In the case of coaches and quarterbacks there was. When I wrote that I wasn't aware of any evidence showing discriminatory hiring practices affecting white players, but I have since found an allegation of one incident[1]. Given that, I'm changing my position[2]: Yes, the NFL should act on this. I'm not sure what an appropriate course of action is (given that quotas don't work well), though. [1] http://rollingout.com/sports/stephen-a-smith-discusses-reverse-racism-at-the-nfl-draft-and-the-chances-of-a-mcnabb-t-o-reunion/ http://rollingout.com/sports/stephen-a-smith-discusses-rever... [2] Strong opinions, weakly held...
      - xienze 12y ago
        > It would be if there was any other indication of discrimination against whites than the numbers. I agree with you that I don't think the NFL is discriminating against white players. They just want the best, period. What I have issues with is when a company's racial makeup shakes out to be majority white (funny how that can happen when you draw from a pool that's majority white) and the first instinct is to say "this _must_ be because of bias."
        enneff 12y ago
        What's more likely: a) White males are better at software engineering and that's why the majority of software engineers are white males (there is no scientific evidence to support this whatsoever). b) There are socio-economic factors that lead more white males into software engineering than anyone else (there is ample scientific evidence to support this theory). Clearly there is a bias at work somewhere. It's not necessarily a hiring problem, but rather one that starts further up the "supply chain" (if you will). We're trying to fix that.
- dragonwriter 12y ago
  You'll note that no one has suggested that Google adopt quotas, so your whole "does this mean" thing has no basis at all.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
    - enneff 12y ago
      A quota implies there are limited spots. There are not. Google will hire as many qualified people as it can. These initiatives are about getting more diverse candidates in the recruiting pipeline. We are not turning away any qualified white dudes!
      - xienze 12y ago
        Perhaps "quota" is the wrong term. Yes Google doesn't have a limit on how many people they can hire in total, but in the interest of diversity they are likely to _limit_ the number of "X" people they hire (where "X" is some over-represented ethnic group).
        enneff 12y ago
        Uh, no, we're not. That is an entirely baseless assertion.
        xienze 12y ago
        So you work at Google but you're having trouble grasping simple mathematics? OK then. Let's break it down: X is an over-represented group of Googlers threatening their diversity. Let's say it's males. Y is, let's say, women. Z is the total number of current Googlers. In this case, 0.7Z = X and 0.3Z = Y. (70% men, 30% women). Still with me? If Google were to continue hiring X at the current rate (i.e., 70% of all candidates hired), then the diversity of Z will not change with respect to X and Y. Therefore, in order to achieve the desired balance, Y must be >> X, be that through hiring (i.e., hire more Y than X) or firing (fire more X than Y). Rinse and repeat for other over- and under-represented groups at Google. I'm not sure why this concept is lost on you.
- lutorm 12y ago
  It's worth reflecting on why the makeup of the NFL is as it is. One could for example imagine that it has something to do with what the opportunities for people with different backgrounds are. To be more blunt, if being football players is one of the ways that people with disadvantaged backgrounds who went to poor schools have of succeeding in life, then one could view the makeup of the NFL as a symptom of a problem.
  - ojbyrne 12y ago
    You're equating making it to the NFL with success, which given the number of players who end up out of football within 2-5 years, with serious physical or mental damage, without a viable career path because they have been forced to neglect their education, and in many cases bankrupt, seems like a not very strong argument.
    - lutorm 12y ago
      I agree with you that there are serious questions whether an NFL career is success or exploitation. However, one needs to consider a) whether the demographic that aspires to join the NFL thinks that way, and b) what the alternatives are.
    - Amezarak 12y ago
      I live in the rural south. While I agree with what you're saying, you'd be hard pressed to convince most people here of that. Professional football is by far the most respected profession here. Top of the food chain. Of course, most teenagers recognize they aren't going to make the high school team, let alone make it into the professional realm. If you do make the team, well, try as hard as you can. And of course, most people still don't make it, there's just not enough demand for pro football players. But it's still a huge thing that people aspire to. If you do make it, everyone is going to speak of you with awe. There's a couple guys who grew up near where I did and every single person who knew them or knew of them (anyone you meet will eventually bring them up in conversation) speaks of them with total reverence - they _made it_. Unless your parents are wealthy and/or well-educated, most people don't have a "career" as such in mind - just jobs. Football stands out - especially since the perception is that the only other professional careers boil down to things like "doctor" or "lawyer" which (so the thinking goes) require highly exceptional intelligence beyond the ken of most people, and anyway, they aren't nearly as glorious or high-paying. So it's all about aspiration - and in some places, pro sports is at the top, even if you or I think it constitutes a terrible or unrealistic career choice. Now, in my experience, that aspiration is strongly correlated not so much with race but with your family's educational history, professions, and income. "Rich" kids (parents with income > 60k) grow up in an environment where they really understand there are other opportunities out there. They're more likely not just to go to college, but grow up believing that college is an inevitability and part of life. A ton of kids never even get that far. I think that's the kind of kid he's talking about.
- vacri 12y ago
  Football is a monoculture - it doesn't matter what your race is when it comes to deciding whether to pass or rush. Services for the general public to use - from search to self-driven cars - does need to account for multicultural environments.
- DonHopkins 12y ago
  It would be better if the NFL (and the NBA) would work on changing the diversity of their owners to match the diversity of their players.
enneff 12y ago
As a Google employee, the reason I'd like to improve the diversity of my work place is so I can work with more than just a bunch of white dudes. I mean, white dudes are great and all, but I really value diversity of opinion and experience in my life.
- Omniusaspirer 12y ago
  Of all the places to force new perspective onto yourself the workplace just seems like an odd choice to me. If I want to experience different cultures a corporate office is probably the absolute worst place I can think of to do so.
  - enneff 12y ago
    Uhhh I don't want to "experience different cultures". People of other races and genders are not weird aliens that are going to challenge me. It's not like I'm asking to import some Ugandan field workers as colleagues. I just want to engage with more, different kinds of people from my own society. There are a lot of them out there.
    - Omniusaspirer 12y ago
      I didn't mean "experience different cultures" in such a literal sense, but it's probably my own fault for wording it like I did. Like you, I enjoy engaging with a lot of different sorts of people. I was mostly just commenting that I've found a lot more success doing so outside the workplace in my own personal life. Maybe it's the places I've worked? Hard to say.
      - enneff 12y ago
        I have plenty of success interacting with different sorts of people outside the workplace. But I spend 40-50 hours a week at my workplace, so...
- criley2 12y ago
  This is the feeling I'm scared of: According to Google's numbers, whites are underrepresented at Google compared to the US at large. What? What did I say? Yes, european whites make up roughly 72% of the US, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_United_States#Race_and_ethnicity http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_United_Stat..., and 61% of Googlers. If anything, you should be wanting to see less Asian faces overall (insanely, dramatically overrepresented, 30% of Googlers compared to 4.7% of Americans), and want to see more black faces and more white female faces.
kirkbackus 12y ago
That's more of an ideal, not really an achievable goal. How does Google measure the diversity of its users? How does Google measure the quality of their service to each people group? Does this mean Google's ideal workforce would be a near 1:1 mapping of employees to the general user population?

As a Google employee, the reasons I hear is that we'd like the diversity of our workforce to more accurately reflect the diversity of our users, so we can serve them better.

Dwolb 12y ago

I think this is a very interesting response. If it's true, then their diversity goal will be reached when the makeup of Google workforce is representative of the world population (assuming world population correlates well with Google user population). Therefore, focusing on bringing more women in to tech is a very good goal since women may make up 50% of Google users. Secondary and third goals would be to hire more representatives from Asia and Africa

justicezyx 12y ago

So that's way Google exited China, right? ...

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

nl 12y ago
Does this mean we should empose[sic] quotas to get Blacks out of the NFL and replace them with Whites No to the quotas. But yes, race in the NFL (and in many sports) is an issue that should be addressed. The old problem of the low proportion of black quarterbacks is slowly being addressed, and the Rooney Rule[1] has had some success with the underrepresentation of black coaches. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rooney_Rule http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rooney_Rule
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
  - nl 12y ago
    It sounds to me like you believe that some ethnic groups have intrinsic (genetic) advantages over others in some areas. Like most things to do with race there is a tiny, tiny sliver of truth in this, but not enough to explain the outcomes. sigh Lets look at sports. Sprints: The ACTN3 gene[1] is associated with the fast-twitch muscles, and is more prevalent in people of West African descent. Out of the last 7 Olympic 100m mens finals all 56 finalists have been of West African descent. Only 2 out of the top 500 100m race times are by people without African descent. Case closed? No. The proportion of sprint wins by West Africans is much higher than the prevalence of the ACTN3 gene would explain, and other power sports (notably weight lifting) are dominated by other ethnic groups with a more average distribution of the gene. Distance running: The Kalenjin tribe (mostly from Kenya) has dominated distance running since the late 1990s. Most of their competition has come from Ethiopian runners and the occasional North African (especially in the women's events)[2]. They do have a genetic advantage: they tend to be very skinny, with long legs and short torsos. But you can find these attributes in any population group. More surprising is that elite non-African runners performance has decreased over time: For example, of the top 10 Marathon times by British athletes only 1 (in 8th position) is since 2000, and 6 are pre 1990 (including the 2 fastest times). This indicates something else is going on, that can't just be explained by genetics. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ACTN3 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ACTN3 [2] http://www.iaaf.org/records/toplists/road-running/marathon/outdoor/men/senior http://www.iaaf.org/records/toplists/road-running/marathon/o... - the best place person without a African heritige is Ronaldo Da Costa at 57.
    - thaumasiotes 12y ago
      > Lets look at sports. > Sprints: The ACTN3 gene[1] is associated with the fast-twitch muscles, and is more prevalent in people of West African descent. Out of the last 7 Olympic 100m mens finals all 56 finalists have been of West African descent. Only 2 out of the top 500 100m race times are by people without African descent. > Case closed? No. The proportion of sprint wins by West Africans is much higher than the prevalence of the ACTN3 gene would explain, and other power sports (notably weight lifting) are dominated by other ethnic groups with a more average distribution of the gene. It's hard not to conclude that you're purposefully trying to fool someone here. It never occurred to you that more than one gene might be involved in sprinting?
- thaumasiotes 12y ago
  This is a truly comical response. To you, the only obvious racial characteristics of the NFL are (1) Not enough black quarterbacks (2) Not enough black coaches and those are issues that need to be addressed? How is the low proportion of black quarterbacks a bigger problem than the ultra-low proportion of white non-quarterbacks?
  - nl 12y ago
    How is the low proportion of black quarterbacks a bigger problem than the ultra-low proportion of white non-quarterbacks? It would be if there was any other indication of discrimination against whites than the numbers. In the case of coaches and quarterbacks there was. When I wrote that I wasn't aware of any evidence showing discriminatory hiring practices affecting white players, but I have since found an allegation of one incident[1]. Given that, I'm changing my position[2]: Yes, the NFL should act on this. I'm not sure what an appropriate course of action is (given that quotas don't work well), though. [1] http://rollingout.com/sports/stephen-a-smith-discusses-reverse-racism-at-the-nfl-draft-and-the-chances-of-a-mcnabb-t-o-reunion/ http://rollingout.com/sports/stephen-a-smith-discusses-rever... [2] Strong opinions, weakly held...
    - xienze 12y ago
      > It would be if there was any other indication of discrimination against whites than the numbers. I agree with you that I don't think the NFL is discriminating against white players. They just want the best, period. What I have issues with is when a company's racial makeup shakes out to be majority white (funny how that can happen when you draw from a pool that's majority white) and the first instinct is to say "this _must_ be because of bias."
      - enneff 12y ago
        What's more likely: a) White males are better at software engineering and that's why the majority of software engineers are white males (there is no scientific evidence to support this whatsoever). b) There are socio-economic factors that lead more white males into software engineering than anyone else (there is ample scientific evidence to support this theory). Clearly there is a bias at work somewhere. It's not necessarily a hiring problem, but rather one that starts further up the "supply chain" (if you will). We're trying to fix that.
dragonwriter 12y ago
You'll note that no one has suggested that Google adopt quotas, so your whole "does this mean" thing has no basis at all.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
  - enneff 12y ago
    A quota implies there are limited spots. There are not. Google will hire as many qualified people as it can. These initiatives are about getting more diverse candidates in the recruiting pipeline. We are not turning away any qualified white dudes!
    - xienze 12y ago
      Perhaps "quota" is the wrong term. Yes Google doesn't have a limit on how many people they can hire in total, but in the interest of diversity they are likely to _limit_ the number of "X" people they hire (where "X" is some over-represented ethnic group).
      - enneff 12y ago
        Uh, no, we're not. That is an entirely baseless assertion.
        xienze 12y ago
        So you work at Google but you're having trouble grasping simple mathematics? OK then. Let's break it down: X is an over-represented group of Googlers threatening their diversity. Let's say it's males. Y is, let's say, women. Z is the total number of current Googlers. In this case, 0.7Z = X and 0.3Z = Y. (70% men, 30% women). Still with me? If Google were to continue hiring X at the current rate (i.e., 70% of all candidates hired), then the diversity of Z will not change with respect to X and Y. Therefore, in order to achieve the desired balance, Y must be >> X, be that through hiring (i.e., hire more Y than X) or firing (fire more X than Y). Rinse and repeat for other over- and under-represented groups at Google. I'm not sure why this concept is lost on you.
lutorm 12y ago
It's worth reflecting on why the makeup of the NFL is as it is. One could for example imagine that it has something to do with what the opportunities for people with different backgrounds are. To be more blunt, if being football players is one of the ways that people with disadvantaged backgrounds who went to poor schools have of succeeding in life, then one could view the makeup of the NFL as a symptom of a problem.
- ojbyrne 12y ago
  You're equating making it to the NFL with success, which given the number of players who end up out of football within 2-5 years, with serious physical or mental damage, without a viable career path because they have been forced to neglect their education, and in many cases bankrupt, seems like a not very strong argument.
  - lutorm 12y ago
    I agree with you that there are serious questions whether an NFL career is success or exploitation. However, one needs to consider a) whether the demographic that aspires to join the NFL thinks that way, and b) what the alternatives are.
  - Amezarak 12y ago
    I live in the rural south. While I agree with what you're saying, you'd be hard pressed to convince most people here of that. Professional football is by far the most respected profession here. Top of the food chain. Of course, most teenagers recognize they aren't going to make the high school team, let alone make it into the professional realm. If you do make the team, well, try as hard as you can. And of course, most people still don't make it, there's just not enough demand for pro football players. But it's still a huge thing that people aspire to. If you do make it, everyone is going to speak of you with awe. There's a couple guys who grew up near where I did and every single person who knew them or knew of them (anyone you meet will eventually bring them up in conversation) speaks of them with total reverence - they _made it_. Unless your parents are wealthy and/or well-educated, most people don't have a "career" as such in mind - just jobs. Football stands out - especially since the perception is that the only other professional careers boil down to things like "doctor" or "lawyer" which (so the thinking goes) require highly exceptional intelligence beyond the ken of most people, and anyway, they aren't nearly as glorious or high-paying. So it's all about aspiration - and in some places, pro sports is at the top, even if you or I think it constitutes a terrible or unrealistic career choice. Now, in my experience, that aspiration is strongly correlated not so much with race but with your family's educational history, professions, and income. "Rich" kids (parents with income > 60k) grow up in an environment where they really understand there are other opportunities out there. They're more likely not just to go to college, but grow up believing that college is an inevitability and part of life. A ton of kids never even get that far. I think that's the kind of kid he's talking about.
vacri 12y ago
Football is a monoculture - it doesn't matter what your race is when it comes to deciding whether to pass or rush. Services for the general public to use - from search to self-driven cars - does need to account for multicultural environments.
DonHopkins 12y ago
It would be better if the NFL (and the NBA) would work on changing the diversity of their owners to match the diversity of their players.

enneff 12y ago

As a Google employee, the reason I'd like to improve the diversity of my work place is so I can work with more than just a bunch of white dudes. I mean, white dudes are great and all, but I really value diversity of opinion and experience in my life.

Omniusaspirer 12y ago
Of all the places to force new perspective onto yourself the workplace just seems like an odd choice to me. If I want to experience different cultures a corporate office is probably the absolute worst place I can think of to do so.
- enneff 12y ago
  Uhhh I don't want to "experience different cultures". People of other races and genders are not weird aliens that are going to challenge me. It's not like I'm asking to import some Ugandan field workers as colleagues. I just want to engage with more, different kinds of people from my own society. There are a lot of them out there.
  - Omniusaspirer 12y ago
    I didn't mean "experience different cultures" in such a literal sense, but it's probably my own fault for wording it like I did. Like you, I enjoy engaging with a lot of different sorts of people. I was mostly just commenting that I've found a lot more success doing so outside the workplace in my own personal life. Maybe it's the places I've worked? Hard to say.
    - enneff 12y ago
      I have plenty of success interacting with different sorts of people outside the workplace. But I spend 40-50 hours a week at my workplace, so...
criley2 12y ago
This is the feeling I'm scared of: According to Google's numbers, whites are underrepresented at Google compared to the US at large. What? What did I say? Yes, european whites make up roughly 72% of the US, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_United_States#Race_and_ethnicity http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_United_Stat..., and 61% of Googlers. If anything, you should be wanting to see less Asian faces overall (insanely, dramatically overrepresented, 30% of Googlers compared to 4.7% of Americans), and want to see more black faces and more white female faces.

kirkbackus 12y ago

That's more of an ideal, not really an achievable goal. How does Google measure the diversity of its users? How does Google measure the quality of their service to each people group? Does this mean Google's ideal workforce would be a near 1:1 mapping of employees to the general user population?