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I'm not a developer, but I think it's clear that as a developer you should expect your relationship with Apple to be similar to Google's relationship to users.

by IBM 12y ago

I'm not a developer, but I think it's clear that as a developer you should expect your relationship with Apple to be similar to Google's relationship to users. They rely on both to be successful, but their bread gets buttered by someone else. In Apple's case that's consumers, so you're not going to get the love that consumers would get.

mrtksn 12y ago
Actually, Apple's one of the main selling points is the apps(remember "there is an app for that" ads?). Apple definitely wants to make developers happy but I imagine this is very hard thing to do on scale. I don't think that Apple would risk to lose it's developers to other platforms, they should have witnessed how Windows Mobile desperately tries to boost it's app numbers and how Android pushed hard to reach big numbers of apps for everything. Their Mac platform also suffered from "everybody supports Windows" situation. Apple also tried to stop cross platform apps getting in the AppStore by banning apps made with 3rd party tools(I believe they rationalised it by saying that it's about the app quality but later they got less stricter on this). So yes, Apple wants to make developers happy so that IOS platform gets the best apps but it's just hard thing to do. However it would have been better if Apple had a competitor on the premium apps business, Google's money comes from advertisement which probably keeps them unmotivated to transform their store to more premium marketplace. If Android becomes serious money-making platform this probably would push Apple harder to solve developer problems too.
- jobu 12y ago
  My perspective is that Apple really cares about their users, and only cares about developers inasmuch as it affects their users. Unfortunately I'm a little jaded by some experiences I had with Apple developers at WWDC. Last year I tried working with a dev there to set up an XCode Bot to make Ad Hoc builds. He basically said we were doing it wrong and would have to use developer signed (not Ad Hoc) builds for QA. I asked him if they had ever talked anyone outside Apple about how they do CI or QA on apps before they came up with Bots... painful silence.
  - mahyarm 12y ago
    I'm pretty sure apple doesn't internally have to deal with app signing device limits and bullshit. The limit was 100-110 devices per account since the start, but now there are 5 generations of devices vs. 2 generations and 5 different types vs. the 2 they started with. Apple is a black hole.
- potatolicious 12y ago
  > "Apple definitely wants to make developers happy but I imagine this is very hard thing to do on scale." The downtime isn't the issue, it's the lack of communication during the downtime. Things go down, it's inevitable, even Google suffers outages from time to time - but we've collectively been doing this web API thing for a while now, and there's are certain best practices that should be obvious by now. Have a status page that's up to date. Post updates to the status page. Give ETAs when you have them, or state you don't have a ETA when you don't. I shouldn't have to waste customer service resources calling or emailing someone about this - if your service is down you should know it before I do, and should keep the status page up to date as needed. I don't think this is really about Apple's care (or lack thereof) towards their developers. This is about Apple simply sucking really hard at anything related to the web. Despite this being the year 2014 they still have to take their store offline to make major product additions. iCloud was a veritable disaster for the first year of its existence. Their Maps data is still a cruel joke. And, evidently, their core OS web APIs can go down silently with no spokesperson or page to inform anybody. This is, IMO, the weakest point of Apple, and where Google is most able to eat their lunch. The smartphone market is maturing, and IMO the innovation forwards will be less in the hardware side (where Apple is good) and more in the software services side (where Apple is atrocious).
  - mrtksn 12y ago
    >This is about Apple simply sucking really hard at anything related to the web I concur. My point was to challenge the statement about Apple not caring about it's developers. I don't defend Apple's way of handling this, there are industry standards to handle service outages, Apple should implement them.
    - gress 12y ago
      Which industry standards are you referring to?
      - wutbrodo 12y ago
        From the comment he's replying to: "Have a status page that's up to date. Post updates to the status page. Give ETAs when you have them, or state you don't have a ETA when you don't. I shouldn't have to waste customer service resources calling or emailing someone about this - if your service is down you should know it before I do, and should keep the status page up to date as needed."
- silverbax88 12y ago
  Why would making thousands of developers happy be harder to scale than making millions of consumers happy?
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
bookwormAT 12y ago
for both Apple and Google, they get value from consumers and developers. Google and Apple are in the same business after all (platform & service provider).

by IBM 12y ago

mrtksn 12y ago

Actually, Apple's one of the main selling points is the apps(remember "there is an app for that" ads?). Apple definitely wants to make developers happy but I imagine this is very hard thing to do on scale. I don't think that Apple would risk to lose it's developers to other platforms, they should have witnessed how Windows Mobile desperately tries to boost it's app numbers and how Android pushed hard to reach big numbers of apps for everything. Their Mac platform also suffered from "everybody supports Windows" situation. Apple also tried to stop cross platform apps getting in the AppStore by banning apps made with 3rd party tools(I believe they rationalised it by saying that it's about the app quality but later they got less stricter on this). So yes, Apple wants to make developers happy so that IOS platform gets the best apps but it's just hard thing to do. However it would have been better if Apple had a competitor on the premium apps business, Google's money comes from advertisement which probably keeps them unmotivated to transform their store to more premium marketplace. If Android becomes serious money-making platform this probably would push Apple harder to solve developer problems too.

jobu 12y ago
My perspective is that Apple really cares about their users, and only cares about developers inasmuch as it affects their users. Unfortunately I'm a little jaded by some experiences I had with Apple developers at WWDC. Last year I tried working with a dev there to set up an XCode Bot to make Ad Hoc builds. He basically said we were doing it wrong and would have to use developer signed (not Ad Hoc) builds for QA. I asked him if they had ever talked anyone outside Apple about how they do CI or QA on apps before they came up with Bots... painful silence.
- mahyarm 12y ago
  I'm pretty sure apple doesn't internally have to deal with app signing device limits and bullshit. The limit was 100-110 devices per account since the start, but now there are 5 generations of devices vs. 2 generations and 5 different types vs. the 2 they started with. Apple is a black hole.
potatolicious 12y ago
> "Apple definitely wants to make developers happy but I imagine this is very hard thing to do on scale." The downtime isn't the issue, it's the lack of communication during the downtime. Things go down, it's inevitable, even Google suffers outages from time to time - but we've collectively been doing this web API thing for a while now, and there's are certain best practices that should be obvious by now. Have a status page that's up to date. Post updates to the status page. Give ETAs when you have them, or state you don't have a ETA when you don't. I shouldn't have to waste customer service resources calling or emailing someone about this - if your service is down you should know it before I do, and should keep the status page up to date as needed. I don't think this is really about Apple's care (or lack thereof) towards their developers. This is about Apple simply sucking really hard at anything related to the web. Despite this being the year 2014 they still have to take their store offline to make major product additions. iCloud was a veritable disaster for the first year of its existence. Their Maps data is still a cruel joke. And, evidently, their core OS web APIs can go down silently with no spokesperson or page to inform anybody. This is, IMO, the weakest point of Apple, and where Google is most able to eat their lunch. The smartphone market is maturing, and IMO the innovation forwards will be less in the hardware side (where Apple is good) and more in the software services side (where Apple is atrocious).
- mrtksn 12y ago
  >This is about Apple simply sucking really hard at anything related to the web I concur. My point was to challenge the statement about Apple not caring about it's developers. I don't defend Apple's way of handling this, there are industry standards to handle service outages, Apple should implement them.
  - gress 12y ago
    Which industry standards are you referring to?
    - wutbrodo 12y ago
      From the comment he's replying to: "Have a status page that's up to date. Post updates to the status page. Give ETAs when you have them, or state you don't have a ETA when you don't. I shouldn't have to waste customer service resources calling or emailing someone about this - if your service is down you should know it before I do, and should keep the status page up to date as needed."
silverbax88 12y ago
Why would making thousands of developers happy be harder to scale than making millions of consumers happy?

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

bookwormAT 12y ago

for both Apple and Google, they get value from consumers and developers. Google and Apple are in the same business after all (platform & service provider).