7 ms·

Introducing QuickCoin: Bitcoin Made Simple

61 points by williamcotton 12y ago

antturley 12y ago
Love QuickCoin!!!
- owslo 12y ago
  New account created just to post this... Yeah, that's not obvious.
webjoe 12y ago
This will definitely help my friends get into Bitcoin - I know they've been tired of hearing me talk about it, now I can just give them Bitcoin and they can follow it themselves!
williamcotton 12y ago
Hey guys, I'd love to answer any and all tech related questions. Here's something to get the conversation started: The client-side software is built on top of Helloblock.io and uses BitcoinJS-lib. All wallets and transactions originate on the client and never on our servers using the same mechanisms found in any other hierarchical deterministic brain wallet. So if you add a passphrase and then promptly forget it there's nothing we can do! This is both a feature and a bug and we are interested in exploring other mechanisms that keep our users in control of their funds while also being very easy and convenient to use. We don't want you to store your life savings in this wallet. Think of it like your real wallet. Just put enough for the day in there. There is a time and place for cold wallets and tight restrictions but that can be less convenient for day-to-day use. When you first sign up your passphrase is supplied by our servers. This mechanism is similar to how most Bitcoin and Dogecoin tip bots work. It lets people send to a friend's address before they've signed up for the service. This has some dangers. If our servers are compromised these passphrases can be used to gain access to the wallets, but only if the users haven't gone through the "upgrade your security" process and created a new deterministic wallet. We are busy working on multi-factor authorizations based on multiple identity providers including SMS, Twitter, email and more. We think there are ways to keep users fully in control of their own funds, safe from attackers as well as being convenient. It is a tall order but we're ready to take on the challenge. William Cotton - CTO QuickCoin
- listic 12y ago
  What are your plans? Why do you need so many people? (5 and hiring)
- listic 12y ago
  Do I have to create a separate Bitcoin wallet if I already have one, to use your service? Where will my wallet file get stored?
  - williamcotton 12y ago
    Your wallet and the private key it uses to sign your transactions are generated in your web browser. You are free to send to and from any Bitcoin address. Your wallet is only associated with our services by signing and submitting a token that proves it owns the associated public address. We are exploring ways where any Bitcoin private keys can sign their own token and register with our infrastructure. This process would require the cooperation of other wallet software creators but we're sure a standard will emerge at some point. We would like to have some form of two-factor authorization in place before we expose the private keys to the user interface. Right now the private key never leaves the warm embrace of a function closure inside of a web worker and well out of the global scope of the DOM.
- mappum 12y ago
  I hope you realize you are accepting full risk for all your users' money by using Helloblock. You have a team of 5, is it really too much work to run your own node?
  - williamcotton 12y ago
    We know the guys at Helloblock and we're very excited to be working with them. We feel that a healthy ecosystem of Bitcoin web services is beneficial to everyone. That way everyone can focus on their strengths. Our strengths are in making and shipping consumer Internet software.
salibhai 12y ago
I tried it. Not bad. Not sure if it will get my friends to use BTC though. People are often vary of facebook apps and granting permissions to it.
sktrdie 12y ago
How's this different than simply sending a Coinbase email to someone, or perhaps just the credentials of a blockchain.info account?
- williamcotton 12y ago
  Ease of use, mainly. We started with the basic premise that Bitcoin is too complicated and that wallet software needs to be much easier to use and to get started with. I'd love for you to try out and compare QuickCoin to CoinBase and Blockchain.info and let us know if we came anywhere near are goals. We're bootstrapped and have been in development for only about 10 weeks. I'm sure we have a long way to go. I'm counting on the community here at Hacker News for some feedback so we can make the product and business better!
x1798DE 12y ago
Pretty sure I'm not happy about something that I'd like to see be very secure (like, say, my BTC wallet) being described as "simple". For stuff like that, I think people prefer to land in the "security" side of the security/convenience tradeoff. Seems like a recipe for disaster (which would likely drive people away from Bitcoin, not towards it, once a bunch of people using this service lose a bunch of money).
- williamcotton 12y ago
  We're hoping that people will grow accustomed to having their Bitcoin shared across a number of different wallets and services. We are not expecting people to keep any more in their wallets than they would with their real wallets. Currently we recommend cold-storage for long term savings. We think there is a lot of middle ground for exploring different kinds of security and access privileges and how that affects the liquidity of your bitcoin.
  - x1798DE 12y ago
    I don't think anyone ever recommended that you store your wallet in MtGox long-term, either, but a whole lot of people did it and it's not like when that went sour everyone said, "Oh well, it was stupid of us to trust Mt Gox!" Also, the fact of the matter is that this is subject to the problem that every person everywhere can secretly try to attack every wallet everywhere. One person getting their (physical) wallet stolen when they go out is upsetting for that person, but if someone figured out a way to steal 30% of all peoples' physical wallets at once, you can imagine that would be seen as a catastrophe, which is exactly what you're looking at given the monocultural nature of software. Maybe it wouldn't be a problem for someone who knows the risk and knows what they are doing, but those people don't need the convenience this app purports to offer anyway. Best of luck, I hope I'm wrong.
confiscate 12y ago
I logged in and tried to send BTC to a friend, but apparently I have no bitcoins to send. How do I acquire BTC to send through QuickCoin?
- placeybordeaux 12y ago
  Whats your BTC address?
- MarshallHayner 12y ago
  Add "Marshall Hayner" on Facebook and I will blast you some bits :)
  - confiscate 12y ago
    wait, so the only way to use this product is if someone else using this product sends you bitcoins first? Does that mean the entire system is a 0-sum-bitcoin system, with a fixed number of bitcoins in circulation?
    - williamcotton 12y ago
      I'm not sure that I understand the question, but I'll clarify: This is built on the one-and-only Bitcoin blockchain network. This is not it's own independent blockchain. You can send to your QuickCoin wallet from any other Bitcoin wallet.
  - pantalaimon 12y ago
    Why am I under the impression you've created the post you replied to?
herghost 12y ago
"We use proprietary technology to secure your bitcoins" Well I'm in then.
- KrisAndrew 12y ago
  That instantly turned me away. After reading Applied Cryptography when I was 16 the lesson that stuck with me was "don't create your own security system/cryptosystem." It'll have more holes than a block of Swiss cheese.
  - williamcotton 12y ago
    I don't write the marketing copy but I do write the code. We haven't invented any cryptosystems. What we've built is on top of SSL, HMAC-SHA256 signed tokens and Bitcoin. What is interesting and novel about our security is our use of brain wallets. The wallets are all literally client-side only. If a user adds a password then no one but them can get at their wallet. Of course, they are still susceptible to phishing, theft and other forms of social engineering, but those are all well outside of the realms of cryptography.
    - KrisAndrew 12y ago
      You should make that a bit clearer in your copy. Having "proprietary" and "secure" so close to each other in a single sentence can drive more saavy users away. Other than that, what are you doing to increase trust within the bitcoin system? I have a few friends who work on Wall Street (investment bankers, account executives, etc) and they summarize money as this: "Money is an embodiment of trust. Clients transmit funds to me in amounts with 5 zeroes, or with 7 zeroes, but if they don't trust me they won't send me a single cent." I think the focus on making bitcoin easy to use with a simpler interface is a side-step.
mapgrep 12y ago
Could someone explain to me what appeal is left to Bitcoin once you get rid of anonymity? There must be some, given all the trackable-as-dollars implementations I've seen lately, like the Bitcoin debit card and this, which is actually less anonymous than dollars (since you're sending under an account that has your real name per the Facebook TOS). From my naive standpoint, it seems like you're exposing yourself to a lot of value volatility and to a relatively complex and uncommon processing system. Why not just use PayPal, Stripe, whatever?
- fryguy 12y ago
  I think a big advantage of something that accepts bitcoin through something like this is that even though the "normal" case is the same as things like paypal/stripe, it means that the backend supports bitcoin and can easily accept "raw bitcoins".
- placeybordeaux 12y ago
  One of the biggest reasons I think bitcoin has real value is that you are suddenly in complete control of your spending. If I spend 10$ in bitcoins at target and then they get hacked it has no real affect on me. If I swipe my credit card at target and they get hacked then I have been exposed to a great deal of risk. Not to mention the fact that no third party can be compelled to freeze your account or manipulate it in any way. Of course all of that falls apart if you trust a third party.
  - neumann 12y ago
    I don't understand your first argument. If you knowingly give your details over to a phishing attempt, then yes, you bear the loss. Otherwise, any loss of monies from your bank account through hacking or identity fraud will be borne by your bank. Granted, it would still be a hassle, but I am not really at risk if a website which has my details gets hacked and my CC number gets stolen.
    - squeaky-clean 12y ago
      >Otherwise, any loss of monies from your bank account through hacking or identity fraud will be borne by your bank. Hopefully. Sure in an ideal world, you get your money back. But the real world sucks. And if you do get the money back then you have to get a new CC and go through that whole process. Bitcoins also means that to spend online you don't have to give someone total control of your funds. My chase checkings account was put on hold and my card cancelled when I bought Bitcoins from a friend using Chase Quickpay. I had to meet with someone, in person, and get an entirely new card. Just because Chase didn't like the way I had spent my money. No one had attempted a refund, or complained. Chase just noticed the email was associated with lots of Bitcoin sales and closed my account without informing me. With Bitcoins you don't need to give a 3rd party that much power just to be able to spend money online.
pdx 12y ago
This is facebook only? Forever? Or will you add Google Plus / Email?
- williamcotton 12y ago
  We decided to use Facebook and Bitcoin because we think they have the largest prospective markets for growth. Any and all identity/authentication providers are being discussed, including SMS, Email, TOPT clients like Google Authenticator, and OAuth from any provider. We are also discussing alternate blockchains. We cannot promise anything at this time as our strategies as a company may change but I will say that we could very easily change a few settings to support these other identities and blockchains.
ssharp 12y ago
This isn't a condemnation of QuickCoin specifically, but can someone make BitCoin useful for a bigger demographics? That's a much larger problem than simplicity.
gesman 12y ago
"The next time your friends or family ask you about bitcoin, you can just send them some with QuickCoin!" Start with firing the person who came up with this ingenius marketing pitch and try again.
jglauche 12y ago
Bitcoin Made Simple? Great! But I don't have (and want) a Facebook account.

61 points by williamcotton 12y ago

antturley 12y ago

Love QuickCoin!!!

owslo 12y ago
New account created just to post this... Yeah, that's not obvious.

webjoe 12y ago

This will definitely help my friends get into Bitcoin - I know they've been tired of hearing me talk about it, now I can just give them Bitcoin and they can follow it themselves!

williamcotton 12y ago

Hey guys, I'd love to answer any and all tech related questions. Here's something to get the conversation started: The client-side software is built on top of Helloblock.io and uses BitcoinJS-lib. All wallets and transactions originate on the client and never on our servers using the same mechanisms found in any other hierarchical deterministic brain wallet. So if you add a passphrase and then promptly forget it there's nothing we can do! This is both a feature and a bug and we are interested in exploring other mechanisms that keep our users in control of their funds while also being very easy and convenient to use. We don't want you to store your life savings in this wallet. Think of it like your real wallet. Just put enough for the day in there. There is a time and place for cold wallets and tight restrictions but that can be less convenient for day-to-day use. When you first sign up your passphrase is supplied by our servers. This mechanism is similar to how most Bitcoin and Dogecoin tip bots work. It lets people send to a friend's address before they've signed up for the service. This has some dangers. If our servers are compromised these passphrases can be used to gain access to the wallets, but only if the users haven't gone through the "upgrade your security" process and created a new deterministic wallet. We are busy working on multi-factor authorizations based on multiple identity providers including SMS, Twitter, email and more. We think there are ways to keep users fully in control of their own funds, safe from attackers as well as being convenient. It is a tall order but we're ready to take on the challenge. William Cotton - CTO QuickCoin

listic 12y ago
What are your plans? Why do you need so many people? (5 and hiring)
listic 12y ago
Do I have to create a separate Bitcoin wallet if I already have one, to use your service? Where will my wallet file get stored?
- williamcotton 12y ago
  Your wallet and the private key it uses to sign your transactions are generated in your web browser. You are free to send to and from any Bitcoin address. Your wallet is only associated with our services by signing and submitting a token that proves it owns the associated public address. We are exploring ways where any Bitcoin private keys can sign their own token and register with our infrastructure. This process would require the cooperation of other wallet software creators but we're sure a standard will emerge at some point. We would like to have some form of two-factor authorization in place before we expose the private keys to the user interface. Right now the private key never leaves the warm embrace of a function closure inside of a web worker and well out of the global scope of the DOM.
mappum 12y ago
I hope you realize you are accepting full risk for all your users' money by using Helloblock. You have a team of 5, is it really too much work to run your own node?
- williamcotton 12y ago
  We know the guys at Helloblock and we're very excited to be working with them. We feel that a healthy ecosystem of Bitcoin web services is beneficial to everyone. That way everyone can focus on their strengths. Our strengths are in making and shipping consumer Internet software.

salibhai 12y ago

I tried it. Not bad. Not sure if it will get my friends to use BTC though. People are often vary of facebook apps and granting permissions to it.

sktrdie 12y ago

How's this different than simply sending a Coinbase email to someone, or perhaps just the credentials of a blockchain.info account?

williamcotton 12y ago
Ease of use, mainly. We started with the basic premise that Bitcoin is too complicated and that wallet software needs to be much easier to use and to get started with. I'd love for you to try out and compare QuickCoin to CoinBase and Blockchain.info and let us know if we came anywhere near are goals. We're bootstrapped and have been in development for only about 10 weeks. I'm sure we have a long way to go. I'm counting on the community here at Hacker News for some feedback so we can make the product and business better!

x1798DE 12y ago

Pretty sure I'm not happy about something that I'd like to see be very secure (like, say, my BTC wallet) being described as "simple". For stuff like that, I think people prefer to land in the "security" side of the security/convenience tradeoff. Seems like a recipe for disaster (which would likely drive people away from Bitcoin, not towards it, once a bunch of people using this service lose a bunch of money).

williamcotton 12y ago
We're hoping that people will grow accustomed to having their Bitcoin shared across a number of different wallets and services. We are not expecting people to keep any more in their wallets than they would with their real wallets. Currently we recommend cold-storage for long term savings. We think there is a lot of middle ground for exploring different kinds of security and access privileges and how that affects the liquidity of your bitcoin.
- x1798DE 12y ago
  I don't think anyone ever recommended that you store your wallet in MtGox long-term, either, but a whole lot of people did it and it's not like when that went sour everyone said, "Oh well, it was stupid of us to trust Mt Gox!" Also, the fact of the matter is that this is subject to the problem that every person everywhere can secretly try to attack every wallet everywhere. One person getting their (physical) wallet stolen when they go out is upsetting for that person, but if someone figured out a way to steal 30% of all peoples' physical wallets at once, you can imagine that would be seen as a catastrophe, which is exactly what you're looking at given the monocultural nature of software. Maybe it wouldn't be a problem for someone who knows the risk and knows what they are doing, but those people don't need the convenience this app purports to offer anyway. Best of luck, I hope I'm wrong.

confiscate 12y ago

I logged in and tried to send BTC to a friend, but apparently I have no bitcoins to send. How do I acquire BTC to send through QuickCoin?

placeybordeaux 12y ago
Whats your BTC address?
MarshallHayner 12y ago
Add "Marshall Hayner" on Facebook and I will blast you some bits :)
- confiscate 12y ago
  wait, so the only way to use this product is if someone else using this product sends you bitcoins first? Does that mean the entire system is a 0-sum-bitcoin system, with a fixed number of bitcoins in circulation?
  - williamcotton 12y ago
    I'm not sure that I understand the question, but I'll clarify: This is built on the one-and-only Bitcoin blockchain network. This is not it's own independent blockchain. You can send to your QuickCoin wallet from any other Bitcoin wallet.
- pantalaimon 12y ago
  Why am I under the impression you've created the post you replied to?

herghost 12y ago

"We use proprietary technology to secure your bitcoins" Well I'm in then.

KrisAndrew 12y ago
That instantly turned me away. After reading Applied Cryptography when I was 16 the lesson that stuck with me was "don't create your own security system/cryptosystem." It'll have more holes than a block of Swiss cheese.
- williamcotton 12y ago
  I don't write the marketing copy but I do write the code. We haven't invented any cryptosystems. What we've built is on top of SSL, HMAC-SHA256 signed tokens and Bitcoin. What is interesting and novel about our security is our use of brain wallets. The wallets are all literally client-side only. If a user adds a password then no one but them can get at their wallet. Of course, they are still susceptible to phishing, theft and other forms of social engineering, but those are all well outside of the realms of cryptography.
  - KrisAndrew 12y ago
    You should make that a bit clearer in your copy. Having "proprietary" and "secure" so close to each other in a single sentence can drive more saavy users away. Other than that, what are you doing to increase trust within the bitcoin system? I have a few friends who work on Wall Street (investment bankers, account executives, etc) and they summarize money as this: "Money is an embodiment of trust. Clients transmit funds to me in amounts with 5 zeroes, or with 7 zeroes, but if they don't trust me they won't send me a single cent." I think the focus on making bitcoin easy to use with a simpler interface is a side-step.

mapgrep 12y ago

Could someone explain to me what appeal is left to Bitcoin once you get rid of anonymity? There must be some, given all the trackable-as-dollars implementations I've seen lately, like the Bitcoin debit card and this, which is actually less anonymous than dollars (since you're sending under an account that has your real name per the Facebook TOS). From my naive standpoint, it seems like you're exposing yourself to a lot of value volatility and to a relatively complex and uncommon processing system. Why not just use PayPal, Stripe, whatever?

fryguy 12y ago
I think a big advantage of something that accepts bitcoin through something like this is that even though the "normal" case is the same as things like paypal/stripe, it means that the backend supports bitcoin and can easily accept "raw bitcoins".
placeybordeaux 12y ago
One of the biggest reasons I think bitcoin has real value is that you are suddenly in complete control of your spending. If I spend 10$ in bitcoins at target and then they get hacked it has no real affect on me. If I swipe my credit card at target and they get hacked then I have been exposed to a great deal of risk. Not to mention the fact that no third party can be compelled to freeze your account or manipulate it in any way. Of course all of that falls apart if you trust a third party.
- neumann 12y ago
  I don't understand your first argument. If you knowingly give your details over to a phishing attempt, then yes, you bear the loss. Otherwise, any loss of monies from your bank account through hacking or identity fraud will be borne by your bank. Granted, it would still be a hassle, but I am not really at risk if a website which has my details gets hacked and my CC number gets stolen.
  - squeaky-clean 12y ago
    >Otherwise, any loss of monies from your bank account through hacking or identity fraud will be borne by your bank. Hopefully. Sure in an ideal world, you get your money back. But the real world sucks. And if you do get the money back then you have to get a new CC and go through that whole process. Bitcoins also means that to spend online you don't have to give someone total control of your funds. My chase checkings account was put on hold and my card cancelled when I bought Bitcoins from a friend using Chase Quickpay. I had to meet with someone, in person, and get an entirely new card. Just because Chase didn't like the way I had spent my money. No one had attempted a refund, or complained. Chase just noticed the email was associated with lots of Bitcoin sales and closed my account without informing me. With Bitcoins you don't need to give a 3rd party that much power just to be able to spend money online.

pdx 12y ago

This is facebook only? Forever? Or will you add Google Plus / Email?

williamcotton 12y ago
We decided to use Facebook and Bitcoin because we think they have the largest prospective markets for growth. Any and all identity/authentication providers are being discussed, including SMS, Email, TOPT clients like Google Authenticator, and OAuth from any provider. We are also discussing alternate blockchains. We cannot promise anything at this time as our strategies as a company may change but I will say that we could very easily change a few settings to support these other identities and blockchains.

ssharp 12y ago

This isn't a condemnation of QuickCoin specifically, but can someone make BitCoin useful for a bigger demographics? That's a much larger problem than simplicity.

gesman 12y ago

"The next time your friends or family ask you about bitcoin, you can just send them some with QuickCoin!" Start with firing the person who came up with this ingenius marketing pitch and try again.

jglauche 12y ago

Bitcoin Made Simple? Great! But I don't have (and want) a Facebook account.