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"When experts and journalists spend so much time talking about the limitations of education, they almost certainly are discouraging some teenagers from going to

by Jun8 12y ago

"When experts and journalists spend so much time talking about the limitations of education, they almost certainly are discouraging some teenagers from going to college and some adults from going back to earn degrees. (Those same experts and journalists are sending their own children to college and often obsessing over which one.)" This particular totally misguided comment is a good example of the bias of this article: As a upper-middle class parent, if I can send my son to Berkeley, MIT, Urbana Champaign, etc. then of course I want him to go those colleges and of course they add value. That's not the point. The point is about students from poor neighborhoods getting hammered about the value of college and this being presented as the only way they can get a better life. Then, they end up in brain-dead diploma mills with very debatable effect on their employability. I had this debate many times with teachers in the Chicago South side high school that I mentor: Compare attending a place like Illinois Central College for four years OR spending that time learning about a craft, e.g. programming (yes, I'm biased) and then trying to attend, say, Hacker School or something similar. Granted, this is not an option for all students but things like this should be mentioned to students and put on the table as an option. Instead, when I mention this and similar options teachers and students look at me alike like I'm from Mars. The reason is that high school counselors and teachers whose job it is to guide disadvantaged students do not have a clear understanding of these option for the simple reason that when they got educated these option did not exist.

judk 12y ago
You picked a poor example. ICC is not GWU https://www.google.com/search?q=illinois+central+college+tuitione https://www.google.com/search?q=illinois+central+college+tui... $7k/yr is a great price for a college education. And there is time in summer and after school to work or study additional trade work. The education might not be top-shelf, bit if the student doesn't know enough to skip the classes on the curriculum, they are quite valuable.
- shabadoop 12y ago
  I'm from Eastern Canada, right now a pragmatic student can go out West and work for two years, return to a community college with free tuition while drawing unemployment for a two year diploma where they learn a trade, and then transfer into a four year university to finish up a relevant bachelor's degree in 2.5 years. My friend lives with a dude who took that route who's now doing his doctorate in English. He still goes and works on the oil rigs in the summer, then spends the rest of the year studying 19th century english lit.
  - lsaferite 12y ago
    Of course, working oil rigs is inherently dangerous work. People die or get permanently disfigured doing that work. Not everyone of course, but enough that you should strongly consider if that's a risk worth taking.
- Jun8 12y ago
  You're right, that was not a great example. However, the real loss in going to a subpar college is not the money (unless it is quite expensive) but time. Unfortunately, when you're young you don't quite appreciate the opportunity cost of time. Four years is a lot of time, you can become expert in at least in one area in that time.
rayiner 12y ago
The reason they look at you that way is outside of programming, not having a degree is a barrier to white collar jobs. My father in law never finished his degree, but worked his way up to a director level position in IT. But when he had to find a new IT job, he had a really hard time getting a comparable position, because those positions required a degree. People in the software world live in a bubble. There's is not an oversupply in that field like there is in nearly every other. That makes employers more willing to overlook paper qualifications to broaden the pool of candidates.
- opendais 12y ago
  I'm not convinced a lack of 'oversupply' is true. Many companies are trying to increase the H1B and other visas to generate the kind of oversupply you are talking about. Software is also one of the handful of industries where physical location doesn't matter. So being a good Indian developer who is comfortable living off of 50% of the US salary is a huge competitive advantage. If people who just counted beans had their way, I'm sure they'd outsource as much development as they could to countries like India [if only they could filter out the bad developers in those countries].
  - rayiner 12y ago
    It's all relative, right? The supply situation in software is much more favorable for labor than in nearly any other white collar occupation save maybe for medicine.
    - opendais 12y ago
      Based on this random list from 2011: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/25-college-majors-with-lowest-unemployment-rates/ http://www.cbsnews.com/news/25-college-majors-with-lowest-un... You appear to be correct. However, moving forward in time to 2013: http://jobs.aol.com/articles/2013/01/18/careers-lowest-unemployment-rate/ http://jobs.aol.com/articles/2013/01/18/careers-lowest-unemp... http://money.cnn.com/2013/01/04/news/economy/jobs-lowest-unemployment/ http://money.cnn.com/2013/01/04/news/economy/jobs-lowest-une... That appears to be incorrect.
maratd 12y ago
> if I can send my son to Berkeley, MIT, Urbana Champaign, etc. then of course I want him to go Why? Are you truly saying that for the amount of money you would be charged to send your son there, you cannot find him a better educational opportunity? Also, we're kind of splitting things into "college" and "not college". There are infinite possibilities between the two. You can audit classes. You can be a part-time student. You can attend, but not work toward a degree, which may require you to take dozens of pointless pre-requisite classes. Those are just off the top of my head. And finally, since when did an education's worth began to be measured solely by your earning power? We used to educate people just for the sake of them being better people. There's a thought. There are so many questions to be asked and the only one being focused on is ... are you going to earn more money when you're done?
- TTPrograms 12y ago
  You're talking about schools with average starting salaries in the 60 to 100k range, not to mention the intangible benefits of being surrounded by smart people. I think the impetus is on you to demonstrate that an alternative path is measurably superior for a significant percentage of the people who would go there.
  - maratd 12y ago
    > demonstrate that an alternative path is measurably superior for a significant percentage of the people That's really kind of my point. There is no path that is measurably superior for a significant percentage of people. We're all different. Very different. Because of that, we should have unique paths, even for our education.
    - TTPrograms 12y ago
      That's not really a demonstration - that's a statement of personal philosophy.
- Jun8 12y ago
  I think the main value of going to an elite college is the network you obtain. You make an excellent point about education worth points that are harder to measure.
jauer 12y ago
I'm a little surprised that central IL/Peoria area colleges are a topic for discussion in Chicago high schools. Aren't there plenty of community colleges in the Chicago area? ICC is a low-cost community college that primarily issues AS (2-year) degrees. AFAIK they don't have a BS (4-year) program. The people that I've know who've attended used it as a stepping stone to a 4-year degree from another area school such as Bradley because their high school experience didn't adequately prepare them to enter a Bachelor's program (or they lacked confidence or money). It's exactly the kind of place that someone who can't go to Berkeley, MIT, UIUC (or even ISU/WIU/EIU/SIU) should go. Source: Lived in the area for eight years. Had friends who attended and knew instructors through various other activities. To your broader point, I hear that the first year of college is used to compensate for poor high school education. If that's the case, is something like Hacker School really a option for the average high school graduate? Obviously exceptional students could take the self-study route but is that really a option for more than the top 2% or so?

by Jun8 12y ago

judk 12y ago

You picked a poor example. ICC is not GWU https://www.google.com/search?q=illinois+central+college+tuitione https://www.google.com/search?q=illinois+central+college+tui... $7k/yr is a great price for a college education. And there is time in summer and after school to work or study additional trade work. The education might not be top-shelf, bit if the student doesn't know enough to skip the classes on the curriculum, they are quite valuable.

shabadoop 12y ago
I'm from Eastern Canada, right now a pragmatic student can go out West and work for two years, return to a community college with free tuition while drawing unemployment for a two year diploma where they learn a trade, and then transfer into a four year university to finish up a relevant bachelor's degree in 2.5 years. My friend lives with a dude who took that route who's now doing his doctorate in English. He still goes and works on the oil rigs in the summer, then spends the rest of the year studying 19th century english lit.
- lsaferite 12y ago
  Of course, working oil rigs is inherently dangerous work. People die or get permanently disfigured doing that work. Not everyone of course, but enough that you should strongly consider if that's a risk worth taking.
Jun8 12y ago
You're right, that was not a great example. However, the real loss in going to a subpar college is not the money (unless it is quite expensive) but time. Unfortunately, when you're young you don't quite appreciate the opportunity cost of time. Four years is a lot of time, you can become expert in at least in one area in that time.

rayiner 12y ago

The reason they look at you that way is outside of programming, not having a degree is a barrier to white collar jobs. My father in law never finished his degree, but worked his way up to a director level position in IT. But when he had to find a new IT job, he had a really hard time getting a comparable position, because those positions required a degree. People in the software world live in a bubble. There's is not an oversupply in that field like there is in nearly every other. That makes employers more willing to overlook paper qualifications to broaden the pool of candidates.

opendais 12y ago
I'm not convinced a lack of 'oversupply' is true. Many companies are trying to increase the H1B and other visas to generate the kind of oversupply you are talking about. Software is also one of the handful of industries where physical location doesn't matter. So being a good Indian developer who is comfortable living off of 50% of the US salary is a huge competitive advantage. If people who just counted beans had their way, I'm sure they'd outsource as much development as they could to countries like India [if only they could filter out the bad developers in those countries].
- rayiner 12y ago
  It's all relative, right? The supply situation in software is much more favorable for labor than in nearly any other white collar occupation save maybe for medicine.
  - opendais 12y ago
    Based on this random list from 2011: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/25-college-majors-with-lowest-unemployment-rates/ http://www.cbsnews.com/news/25-college-majors-with-lowest-un... You appear to be correct. However, moving forward in time to 2013: http://jobs.aol.com/articles/2013/01/18/careers-lowest-unemployment-rate/ http://jobs.aol.com/articles/2013/01/18/careers-lowest-unemp... http://money.cnn.com/2013/01/04/news/economy/jobs-lowest-unemployment/ http://money.cnn.com/2013/01/04/news/economy/jobs-lowest-une... That appears to be incorrect.

maratd 12y ago

> if I can send my son to Berkeley, MIT, Urbana Champaign, etc. then of course I want him to go Why? Are you truly saying that for the amount of money you would be charged to send your son there, you cannot find him a better educational opportunity? Also, we're kind of splitting things into "college" and "not college". There are infinite possibilities between the two. You can audit classes. You can be a part-time student. You can attend, but not work toward a degree, which may require you to take dozens of pointless pre-requisite classes. Those are just off the top of my head. And finally, since when did an education's worth began to be measured solely by your earning power? We used to educate people just for the sake of them being better people. There's a thought. There are so many questions to be asked and the only one being focused on is ... are you going to earn more money when you're done?

TTPrograms 12y ago
You're talking about schools with average starting salaries in the 60 to 100k range, not to mention the intangible benefits of being surrounded by smart people. I think the impetus is on you to demonstrate that an alternative path is measurably superior for a significant percentage of the people who would go there.
- maratd 12y ago
  > demonstrate that an alternative path is measurably superior for a significant percentage of the people That's really kind of my point. There is no path that is measurably superior for a significant percentage of people. We're all different. Very different. Because of that, we should have unique paths, even for our education.
  - TTPrograms 12y ago
    That's not really a demonstration - that's a statement of personal philosophy.
Jun8 12y ago
I think the main value of going to an elite college is the network you obtain. You make an excellent point about education worth points that are harder to measure.

jauer 12y ago

I'm a little surprised that central IL/Peoria area colleges are a topic for discussion in Chicago high schools. Aren't there plenty of community colleges in the Chicago area? ICC is a low-cost community college that primarily issues AS (2-year) degrees. AFAIK they don't have a BS (4-year) program. The people that I've know who've attended used it as a stepping stone to a 4-year degree from another area school such as Bradley because their high school experience didn't adequately prepare them to enter a Bachelor's program (or they lacked confidence or money). It's exactly the kind of place that someone who can't go to Berkeley, MIT, UIUC (or even ISU/WIU/EIU/SIU) should go. Source: Lived in the area for eight years. Had friends who attended and knew instructors through various other activities. To your broader point, I hear that the first year of college is used to compensate for poor high school education. If that's the case, is something like Hacker School really a option for the average high school graduate? Obviously exceptional students could take the self-study route but is that really a option for more than the top 2% or so?