5 ms·

>In 1970, Robert White and his colleagues successfully transplanted the head of a rhesus monkey on the body of another one, whose head had simultaneously been r

by rtpg 12y ago

>In 1970, Robert White and his colleagues successfully transplanted the head of a rhesus monkey on the body of another one, whose head had simultaneously been removed. The monkey lived 8 days and was, by all measures, normal, having suffered no complications.[28] I would think that living only 8 days would be a "complication"

rosser 12y ago
Given the medical technology available in 1970 and an intent of, "Well, let's see what happens...", the subject's death was assumed and fully expected. Frankly, that the monkey survived 8 days in those circumstances is impressive.
- rtpg 12y ago
  It's impressive, but when I read "no complications" that to me means "walking away pretty much unscathed". Just odd phrasing, maybe it's common in this sort of research
  - rosser 12y ago
    Perhaps reading the phrase "no complications" with an implicit unexpected in there would make it more palatable?
qwerty_asdf 12y ago
I would guess that the experiment wouldn't be permitted to prolong the animal's life in such an admittedly abnormal state, since the surgery might be regarded as a form of unusual cruelty in and of itself. It was probably classified as a "non-survival surgery" and a "painful procedure without the use of pain-relieving drugs", since they would be permitting the monkey to re-awaken and test its senses in a lucid state, after a surgery in which they were uncertain of whether the monkey would live. An animal protocol like that usually anticipates euthanasia, after the basic science of the experiment has been satisfied. Since the surgery (and subsequent resuscitation) is the experiment, and it's not a longitudinal quality-of-life study, I doubt they planned retaining the monkey much more than a week after surgery.
bigtones 12y ago
I agree. That monkey was paralyzed below the point of the spinal cord severing - so the monkey had massive complications and to say there were none is ridiculous. No doctor has even been able to successfully connect the animals' spinal cords with their donor bodies. http://www.cbsnews.com/news/human-head-transplant-is-bad-science-says-neuroscientist/ http://www.cbsnews.com/news/human-head-transplant-is-bad-sci...
pling 12y ago
8 days of complete terror and pain I imagine.
- agumonkey 12y ago
  IIRC that's why they stopped at day 8. The animal was technically functionning but exhibited signs of emotional distress.
jonmrodriguez 12y ago
Yeah, and "by all measures, normal" was also bullshit, the monkey was paralyzed from the neck down with no spinal connection! I can't believe we have so little regard for the rights of species very nearly as intelligent and probably equally aware as us. It would be extreme torture to go through a beheading and reattachment with probably little or no anesthesia, and then be forced to live for 8 days in a fucked-up painful & dying state, and no way to escape or even move!
- jahewson 12y ago
  Nowadays there are ethics committees and they would not allow such an experiment, thankfully.
  - ddoolin 12y ago
    In some places, at least. Wherever capable of performing the experiment, hopefully.
  - jonmrodriguez 12y ago
    On the other side of the coin, I think people should be allowed to opt-in to such an experiment if they are fully informed and not being financially coerced. E.g., if someone's body is dying and they want their brain to live a little longer, and they need several extra days to finish saying goodbye to their loved ones. But there would need to be a ton of anesthesia and other calming drugs given both during and the entire time after surgery. I don't think that experiments like this should be off the table if needed for progress as a civilization, but I think we can't force very lucid animals into these experiments and not give them anesthesia. The experiment itself isn't necessarily good or bad, but forcing a lucid animal into this even if it expresses fear or wants to flee is wrong.
  - Fuxy 12y ago
    And this is where it gets dicey. These experiments are necessary in order to further our understanding of biology we cannot just rule them out as cruel since if we don't do them someone else will. In China they use political prisoners as involuntary organ donors for gods sake. Hell you can get donor organs within weeks in China while it takes months or even years in other countries just to give you an idea. So the question is would you rather have countries with less regard for human or animal lives do the experiments and reap its benefits while you stick your head in the sand or would you do the experiments yourself while attempting to treat the creatures in the most humane way possible?
igravious 12y ago
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_J._White http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_J._White Dr. Jerry Silver, an expert in regrowing severed nerves, called White's experiments on monkeys, "fairly barbaric."

by rtpg 12y ago

rosser 12y ago

Given the medical technology available in 1970 and an intent of, "Well, let's see what happens...", the subject's death was assumed and fully expected. Frankly, that the monkey survived 8 days in those circumstances is impressive.

rtpg 12y ago
It's impressive, but when I read "no complications" that to me means "walking away pretty much unscathed". Just odd phrasing, maybe it's common in this sort of research
- rosser 12y ago
  Perhaps reading the phrase "no complications" with an implicit unexpected in there would make it more palatable?

qwerty_asdf 12y ago

I would guess that the experiment wouldn't be permitted to prolong the animal's life in such an admittedly abnormal state, since the surgery might be regarded as a form of unusual cruelty in and of itself. It was probably classified as a "non-survival surgery" and a "painful procedure without the use of pain-relieving drugs", since they would be permitting the monkey to re-awaken and test its senses in a lucid state, after a surgery in which they were uncertain of whether the monkey would live. An animal protocol like that usually anticipates euthanasia, after the basic science of the experiment has been satisfied. Since the surgery (and subsequent resuscitation) is the experiment, and it's not a longitudinal quality-of-life study, I doubt they planned retaining the monkey much more than a week after surgery.

bigtones 12y ago

I agree. That monkey was paralyzed below the point of the spinal cord severing - so the monkey had massive complications and to say there were none is ridiculous. No doctor has even been able to successfully connect the animals' spinal cords with their donor bodies. http://www.cbsnews.com/news/human-head-transplant-is-bad-science-says-neuroscientist/ http://www.cbsnews.com/news/human-head-transplant-is-bad-sci...

pling 12y ago

8 days of complete terror and pain I imagine.

agumonkey 12y ago
IIRC that's why they stopped at day 8. The animal was technically functionning but exhibited signs of emotional distress.

jonmrodriguez 12y ago

Yeah, and "by all measures, normal" was also bullshit, the monkey was paralyzed from the neck down with no spinal connection! I can't believe we have so little regard for the rights of species very nearly as intelligent and probably equally aware as us. It would be extreme torture to go through a beheading and reattachment with probably little or no anesthesia, and then be forced to live for 8 days in a fucked-up painful & dying state, and no way to escape or even move!

jahewson 12y ago
Nowadays there are ethics committees and they would not allow such an experiment, thankfully.
- ddoolin 12y ago
  In some places, at least. Wherever capable of performing the experiment, hopefully.
- jonmrodriguez 12y ago
  On the other side of the coin, I think people should be allowed to opt-in to such an experiment if they are fully informed and not being financially coerced. E.g., if someone's body is dying and they want their brain to live a little longer, and they need several extra days to finish saying goodbye to their loved ones. But there would need to be a ton of anesthesia and other calming drugs given both during and the entire time after surgery. I don't think that experiments like this should be off the table if needed for progress as a civilization, but I think we can't force very lucid animals into these experiments and not give them anesthesia. The experiment itself isn't necessarily good or bad, but forcing a lucid animal into this even if it expresses fear or wants to flee is wrong.
- Fuxy 12y ago
  And this is where it gets dicey. These experiments are necessary in order to further our understanding of biology we cannot just rule them out as cruel since if we don't do them someone else will. In China they use political prisoners as involuntary organ donors for gods sake. Hell you can get donor organs within weeks in China while it takes months or even years in other countries just to give you an idea. So the question is would you rather have countries with less regard for human or animal lives do the experiments and reap its benefits while you stick your head in the sand or would you do the experiments yourself while attempting to treat the creatures in the most humane way possible?

igravious 12y ago

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_J._White http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_J._White Dr. Jerry Silver, an expert in regrowing severed nerves, called White's experiments on monkeys, "fairly barbaric."