18 ms·

Rap Genius Co-Founder Moghadam Fired

171 points by obilgic 12y ago

zenbowman 12y ago
Rap is the most misogynistic genre in the history of music, it is not surprising at all that a rap enthusiast would share the views of the artists whose music he listens to.
- kungfooguru 12y ago
  Classic racism. Is rap really more misogynistic than rock? Or is it perceived as such for obvious reasons.
  - gopher1 12y ago
    Yes, it is more misogynistic than rock.
  - k-mcgrady 12y ago
    Where does zenbowman mention race? His comment had nothing to do with it. Your assumption that rappers are all of one race and that it is perceived as misoginistic 'for obvious reasons' on other hand scream racist.
    - erikpukinskis 12y ago
      Rap very obviously was created by and is to this day dominated by black people. Saying so is not racist. And zenbowman's comment can be racist without mentioning race. I might be upset because the U.S. has a black president, and say "our political system has gone to hell!" and that would be a racist statement even if I didn't explicitly spell out that my reason for thinking so was the existence of a black president.
  - TillE 12y ago
    Popular rock could be crude (on a level with "Baby Got Back" or whatever), but it was rarely degrading in the way that a whole lot of rap is. I don't think that's an inherent quality of the genre, though. But it is a fact of many of the popular artists.
  - middleclick 12y ago
    I really don't think this has anything to do with racism. There are rappers from every race probably. Rap is misogynistic, no doubt. Sure it has some positive sides to it (protest) but most rap today is not about that.
  - 001sky 12y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misogyny_in_hip_hop_culture https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misogyny_in_hip_hop_culture Topic has its own wikipedia entry...with 71 footnotes. Edit: Sample Misogyny is prevalent in hip hop culture.[38] Overt misogyny in rap music emerged in the late 1980s, and has since then been a feature of the music of numerous hip hop artists.[2] A survey of adolescents showed that 66% of black girls and 57% of black boys believe that rap music videos portray black women in "bad and offensive ways".[39] Gangsta rap, the most commercially successful subgenre of hip hop,[40] has been particularly criticized and associated with misogyny.[7][41] Even if this subject was "simply debatable", there is at least a prima-facie case that it should not be disissed out of hand. Nor in such a careless manner.
  - Pxtl 12y ago
    Okay, I think the grandparent post was a little off-base trying to lay blame at rap music, but I think he's talking about the pure surface-level content of the lyrics. I mean, the rock music scene has problems with treatment of women - both in the fandom and the bands themselves - and if you start going back to the heydey of rock music you find utterly horrifying actions, but if you're talking about pure lyrical content? It's hard to say that any genre comes close to the proliferation of mysogyny in mainstream hip-hop.
  - zenbowman 12y ago
    Yes, yes it is. There's simply no comparison. http://rapgenius.com/Dr-dre-bitches-aint-shit-lyrics http://rapgenius.com/Dr-dre-bitches-aint-shit-lyrics "Bitches ain't shit but hoes and tricks / Lick on these nuts and suck the dick / Get's the fuck out after you're done / And I hops in my ride to make a quick run." This is pretty tame by today's rap standards where rape and violence are glorified. Don't excuse the violence by claiming that it is racist to point out the obvious truth. For the record, Afrocentric rap is much less misogynistic than gangsta rap, which is relatively race-neutral.
- jonnybgood 12y ago
  No, not really. Saying rap is misogynistic is an overgeneralization. It really depends on the subgenre which rap has many of. In the case of misogyny, it's primarily contained within the small gangsta rap subgenre, which has almost completely died out.
  - onewaystreet 12y ago
    The "Gangsta rap" subgenre was heavily misogynistic, but as you say, it has completely died out. Most rap these days is about how rich the rapper is (Jay Z) or about racism (Kanye).
  - YTowOnt9 12y ago
    NOT ALL RAP
    - Recoil42 12y ago
      YES ALL INDIE POP
  - kyro 12y ago
    Partially agree, but you still have rap/hip-hop club-bangers with misogynistic undertones that hit the mainstream every so often by the likes of Weezy, Lil' John, Flo' Rida, A$AP, Snoop, etc.
  - mjolk 12y ago
    Eminem has "songs" about literally kidnapping and murdering women. Lil Wayne and Drake have a song called "Bitches Love me." Misogyny in rap isn't "primarily contained" within a subgenre of the past.
  - cmelbye 12y ago
    Almost completely died out? Have you heard Kanye's new album?
    - sehr 12y ago
      Yeezus is nowhere even near early 2000's gangsta rap, sonically or lyrically. Compare this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lc0zKB88XPM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lc0zKB88XPM To this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--824JnSx7U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--824JnSx7U
- lotsofmangos 12y ago
  Orchestral music over the years has probably been worse. There are plenty of celebrated female rappers, whereas Last Night Of The Proms had their first ever female conductor only last year and they've been going since 1895.
  - morbius 12y ago
    There's a world of difference between patriarchy and misogyny.
    - lotsofmangos 12y ago
      As far as I can tell the main difference between a patriarch and a misogynist, is that with a patriarch the women haven't successfully rebelled yet.
      - morbius 12y ago
        Patriarchy is a system wherein women are not predominant. Misogyny is a system wherein women are subject to mistreatment. Note that I am not advocating either system, and am an ardent feminist.
        lotsofmangos 12y ago
        Misogyny isn't a system and patriarchies don't persist for long without misogyny, for fairly obvious reasons.
        zenbowman 12y ago
        I don't believe that is accurate. There are plenty of patriarchal societies where women have high status and are not subject to mistreatment or violence, but no political or economic control.
        lotsofmangos 12y ago
- pizza 12y ago
  cite the source
- aliakbarkhan 12y ago
  http://misogynisticlyricsthatarentrap.tumblr.com/ http://misogynisticlyricsthatarentrap.tumblr.com/
  - Crito 12y ago
    Since he was not claiming that only rap contains misogynistic lyrics, I am not sure what your point is.
basisword 12y ago
The only stories I've ever seen about Rap Genius have been ones which would make me never want to use their service.
- frostmatthew 12y ago
  Agreed. Seems they enjoy testing the limits of there's no such thing as bad publicity
  - lmg643 12y ago
    even in apology ... "especially since Elliot is talking about my neighborhood growing up" ... it has a bad tone, particularly when you consider the bullying the kid faced. was mahboob the kind of guy to be part of the problem, or part of the solution?
- igorgue 12y ago
  Yeah, the alternatives to Rap Genius are great... sigh.
  - rmrfrmrf 12y ago
    songmeanings.net has been around since I was a pre-teen and it's served me quite well. It's full of ads now, but at least the quality is good.
    - streptomycin 12y ago
      It's full of ads because it licenses the rights to the lyrics, which is quite expensive. Most lyric sites don't.
  - Asparagirl 12y ago
    Oh, are the alternatives to Rap Genius attempting to profit, through pageviews and ad revenue, from re-posting the horrifically, murderously misogynist rantings of a spree killer? And then going beyond that, adding their own misogynistic thoughts to the text, as a cherry on top? I mean, that's not a real high bar there.
superduper33 12y ago
Careface
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- glesica 12y ago
  Or just the market responding?
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
    - glesica 12y ago
      So a business can't act preemptively to keep users from boycotting? There are several comments in this thread that suggest people shy away from using Rap Genius because of perceived bad behavior on the part of the founders. It is quite possible that the investors behind the company (who have quite a bit of money on the line and, according to the article, were partly behind this firing) have decided that the bad publicity is taking a toll and want to minimize the impact.
mimog 12y ago
This seems like quite the overreaction. Why wouldn't an apology suffice?
- deleted 12y ago
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  - k-mcgrady 12y ago
    You should look at the rest of his annotations which Gawker[1] has. [1] http://gawker.com/rap-genius-co-founders-creepy-comments-on-elliot-rodger-1581469310/+nitasha http://gawker.com/rap-genius-co-founders-creepy-comments-on-...
- k-mcgrady 12y ago
  The co-founder of a company uses his own company's service to display his misogyny and mock a recent tragedy. He should be lucky the let him 'resign' and didn't very publicly fire him.
  - mjolk 12y ago
    I assume this is cofounder privilege. If one of my employees got my business this kind of bad press, I'd lead him/her out by the ear immediately.
- onewaystreet 12y ago
  This was just the latest of many incidents involving Mahbod. Google his name and you will see why he was fired/resigned.
- trevvvor 12y ago
  A highly visible man in tech praised the writings of a mass murderer. The writings in question encouraged and led to violence against women through the viewpoint that women should pay attention to men and given men what they want all the time, along with a barrage of woman hating comments. This problem of entitlement and misogyny from societal influences is also well known, and is pervasive, in tech. Mahbod praised the writings of someone who represents problems in society that lead to violence against women. He threw in his own misogynistic comments for good measure. He's not only encouraging dangerous behavior, but adding to it. Women, both in technology and outside of it, feel a real danger because of comments like these. No amount of apologizing would have sufficed here to keep his job. I was personally disappointed that he was allowed to resign, as that's not sending the right message, which would be "this is a real problem, we acknowledge it, and we won't tolerate behavior leading to violence of women." The firing is more appropriate. However, when you have someone like that leading a company, chances are it's already worked its way into the culture. I never had a reason to use this service before, but now I have a reason to actively avoid it.
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BorisMelnik 12y ago
I remember when RapGenius had the Google penalty a lot of folks were ranting about one of the founders and his bad behavior. Is this the same guy?
- berberous 12y ago
  Yeah. He has blamed some of his behavior on a brain tumor: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2507360/Rap-Genius-Mahbod-Moghadam-brain-tumor-mean.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2507360/Rap-Genius-M...
  - staunch 12y ago
    Can someone tell me why this isn't a bigger part of the story? Brain tumor and brain surgery can both severely alter behavior. He could be a totally different person if it wasn't for his fucking brain cancer. I have nothing but pity and compassion for him after learning that, if it is in fact true.
    - acjohnson55 12y ago
      At the same time, if he can't contain his impulses, he probably shouldn't be helping run a company.
    - BorisMelnik 12y ago
      I do have a lot of sympathy for him as well, I did not know this. Agree with the commenter below, he shouldn't be the face of the company. If he does have intrinsic value to the company perhaps he should just do what he does best (code, design, etc) but definitely not anything PR related.
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bksenior 12y ago
Terrible comment, but for an industry built on fringe ideas and people it seems the guillotine of public or consensus opinion seems to act quicker and quick with extreme finality. I don't endorse what he said, and agree that he has down some clown'ish things in the past, but the 98% perfect of the non-offensive stuff he does gave Rap Genius a brand in a hyper competitive space and helped establish a brand. I don't know much about the internal situation at RG and can only imagine he was on thin ice if he was cut so fast, but this trend of public hanging really doesnt give much confidence in unpopular ideas being discussed in public forums.
- jacques_chester 12y ago
  "My guess: his sister is smokin' hot" is not really "discussing an idea". Plus it's a private company. They don't owe you or anybody tenure.
- cmelbye 12y ago
  This was childish, offensive annotations on a murderer's manifesto days after he killed several people. I'm sure we'd all enjoy discussing great ideas, but this was neither great nor an idea.
  - moistgorilla 12y ago
    Honestly, the only thing a murderer's manifesto deserves is to be laughed at.
- rmrfrmrf 12y ago
  I agree, but I think it's just part of the beast. Investors don't want garbage like this (clear lapses in judgment that have little to do with the business itself) affecting their prospects of a return, and quiet discipline allows the Gawker/Tumblr/Reddit/Twitter/blog complex to spiral out of control in a positive feedback loop of outrage and speculation. And while you say Moghadam has been 98% perfect, that doesn't really change the fact that the other 2% of his behavior would have had him instantly fired multiple times over in any other setting. I think his removal will allow Rap Genius to clean up its image a bit.
bandushrew 12y ago
Calling that offensive is a real stretch, IMO. I am fascinated that it warranted a firin'
- codezero 12y ago
  Can you explain why you think that it's a stretch to call that offensive? I guess I would describe it as insensitive and unconstructive (to the service and the document in general)
  - bandushrew 12y ago
    It is definitely insensitive, and it is clearly not constructive. I dont think that insensitive is the same thing as offensive? I must admit, I am completely failing to understand the apparent outrage. I keep feeling like I am missing something, would anyone be willing to explain it while they downvote me?
    - codezero 12y ago
      His being fired isn't necessarily in response to outrage. The current CEO explained it pretty well: that behavior wouldn't be tolerated by a community member (moderator would remove it), and if a moderator made the comment, they would be removed as a moderator. At the co-founder level, breaking community standards (and probably other issues in the past) carry higher consequences. The community standards of Rep Genius aren't necessarily the standards of any other community, though clearly there were members of the public who found the comments to be insensitive and out of line, their desire to call this out and the large response could be called outrage, but it's probably more appropriate to call it widespread disappointment. One could just go to the dictionary definition of outrage though: arouse fierce anger, shock or indignation. or violate or infringe flagrantly (a principle, law, etc.). In this case, the community standards of Rap Genius or even just the standards of the general public. I would say it meets both definitions, 1) it aroused anger and shock, in particular because it was done by someone with such visibility and done in such an insensitive way so close to the time of the actual event (this is something that is often important to consider, rage is proportional to closeness of the event, is that OK? I don't get to decide that.) 2) He infringed, and flagrantly, again, because of his visible position, and the infringement, again, is one of a community standard, which isn't necessarily defined in black and white. edit: I didn't downvote you in this thread, at the root or otherwise, and I hope that other HNers do the same, civilized discussion is the only way that these kinds of issues can be (if possible) understood. There is no universal standard for human behavior, so there will always be disparate opinions and views. My favorite twist on the Golden Rule: Do not do unto others as you would have done unto yourself; You may have different tastes. Do unto others as they would have done unto themselves.
tptacek 12y ago
This is more-or-less a duplicate of this thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7801028 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7801028
- dang 12y ago
  Ok, we'll weight this one off the front page, but not bury it as a dupe completely. The other discussion seems a little more substantive. (Edit: now having scrolled through both, I don't know about that.)
andrea_s 12y ago
Relevant: http://valleywag.gawker.com/rap-genius-frontman-blames-brain-tumor-for-asshole-beha-1450872105 http://valleywag.gawker.com/rap-genius-frontman-blames-brain... (2013) I'm especially liking the title's wording.
LoganCale 12y ago
That comment isn't even offensive. People get offended way too easily.
JungleGymSam 12y ago
People are too sensitive. We're basically at the point where nearly any mistake can destroy the rest of your life. e.g. "zero tolerance" in schools, stories like this, and the recently ousted CEO of Mozilla. Case in point, the amount of downvoting happening in this thread: Someone says something you don't agree with so they must be the devil incarnate. The reaction to his comments and the comments here are laughable.
- csense 12y ago
  > nearly any mistake can destroy the rest of your life This, this, a thousand times this. What kind of world do people think doing this kind of crap is going to create?
- ansimionescu 12y ago
  And yet when I suggested naming and shaming the real assholes of our industry, the patent trolls, everyone lost their shit and began defending those low-lifes. edit: downvoted again; I will never understand this community
  - serf 12y ago
    This isn't the 'hacker' community to badmouth patents (or legislature within the united states, usually) I've found personally. Perhaps it's an indication of how the hackers here make their living.
- iblaine 12y ago
  More than likely this is the straw that broke the camels back and not a knee jerk reaction to uncommon bad behavior.
- misingnoglic 12y ago
  I don't know what he said, but are we really in the business of defending people who are against human rights and make jokes in the face of tragedies? These are founders and CEOs we're talking about, I wouldn't want to work with them regardless of public image.
- 12y ago
csense 12y ago
This comment is crass and tasteless. I guess some people never really get out of the middle school locker room. But firing somebody over this? That's totally an overreaction. People may be outraged now, but in a month nobody will even remember this happened.
- Houshalter 12y ago
  Almost everyone is guilty of black humor.
- dagw 12y ago
  I have no inside knowledge of any of the people involved but from the looks of it I'm guessing they've been wanting to get rid of him for while and decided that this was the excuse they needed.
- xux 12y ago
  Exactly. I've a feeling he was already on his way out, but there wasn't a clear path to do so.
norswap 12y ago
Startup founders are like samurai: quicks to fall upon their swords (or be pushed on them).
afternooner 12y ago
I can only say that this is a fitting response. From the farce of Men's Rights, PUA & brah culture to general misogyny, I'm getting a little tired of many of the youth of my gender. Has anyone seen any studies on why we're seeing this surge of ignorance?
- CamperBob2 12y ago
  Yeah, just look in the Greek and Roman classics sections of your local university library.
  - afternooner 12y ago
    I'm sorry, I don't understand your meaning.
    - sehr 12y ago
      Young people being assholes isn't exclusive to this generation, it's just nowadays we are so connected you can see & hear them a lot more. We aren't special, it's been happening for millennia.
      - afternooner 12y ago
        It's not an unreasonable point, but I feel like this is different. Either way, we'll have to see how this turns out.
- zo1 12y ago
  Well one person's surge of ignorance is another person's surge of exaggerating ignorance. Perhaps you should ask the question "Has anyone seen any studies on whether there really is a surge of <something>"
  - afternooner 12y ago
    My source, a leading mens rights site. http://www.avoiceformen.com/feminism/government-tyranny/gaining-momentum-the-mens-rights-movement-meets-increasing-opposition/ http://www.avoiceformen.com/feminism/government-tyranny/gain...
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dalek2point3 12y ago
original statement in case anyone's interested: http://news.rapgenius.com/Lemon-a-statement-about-mahbods-annotations-on-elliot-rodgers-manifesto-annotated http://news.rapgenius.com/Lemon-a-statement-about-mahbods-an...
localhost3000 12y ago
Well, it was only a matter of time with this guy.
latchkey 12y ago
It's interesting to see how this founder firing was handled so much better than the guy who nearly beat his gf to death recently. In that case, the founder, VC's and board paid the girlfriend off and then tried to cover up the whole story before the press ripped into them and finally forced his firing. http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/nri/us-canada-news/Indian-American-CEO-charged-with-beating-girlfriend-is-fired-by-company-board/articleshow/34302694.cms http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/nri/us-canada-news/Indian...
- bruceb 12y ago
  Nearly beat his gf to death? Bad dude? Yes. But he didn't nearly beat her to death, why are you making things up?
natural219 12y ago
I hate that we're still talking about this, but this is vastly different than the Eich incident. In Eich's case, what he did happened 6 years ago, and with no intention of making it public. In this case, he's openly telling juvenille jokes in an environment with a hightened intolerance to this kind of rhetoric and behavior. After enough of these cases happen, it just gets to the point where if you don't realize the need to censor yourself, then you are not a very smart person. I, for one, am encrypting all of my communication from here out, and only telling tasteless jokes with close, trusted friends. It's sad, but you have to ask yourself if it's more important to run a major company, or have the freedom to tell tasteless jokes. One of the reasons why running a startup sounds less attractive to me by the week.
- erikpukinskis 12y ago
  I don't understand why tasteless jokes are so important to you. I would much rather eat a nice sandwich or go for a hike, or tell a joke that makes light of some bullshit. Tasteless jokes are about just sort of reifying bullshit. I don't understand why people want so badly for that to be a key part of their professional lives, let alone their personal lives. There are other jokes. There are other people to date. There are other experiences in the world. Why cling to these few? Especially when other people are straight up telling you it's harming them.
- polemic 12y ago
  > "I hate that we're still talking about this..." Well me too, but I hate it because people are still shits to each other, and we need to keep talking about it so that we're not sending the message that it's ok to be shits to each other. Yeah, you probably should only tell tasteless jokes with close, trusted friends. I don't mean "as a CEO", I mean, in general, because your tasteless jokes are probably making people feel shitty, and you might as well restrict that as much as possible. > "if you don't realize the need to censor yourself, then you are not a very smart person" Or you're not that interested in being a good person.
  - natural219 12y ago
    I see no problem in exchanging harmless humor between two friends in the context of a long history of friendship and understanding that no party has any ill will towards each other or the outside world. I don't believe it's any of your business what I talk about with my friends in the privacy of my home. In fact, I find your attitude ignorant, dangerous and a little scary. I'm not saying the Rapgenius guy's joke was any funny or appropriate it at all. It honestly didn't seem that funny to me. But I don't think "making bad jokes in private" and "being a good person" correlate very well. There are other things I prioritize, like doing actual good.
argumentum 12y ago
Bummer, I generally liked Mahbod's eccentric tomfoolery. He also was extremely passionate about RG (and poetry genius & news genius).
- griffinmahon 12y ago
  Second this. "Passion" is most certainly the right word, and I'd be lying if I said his relentless dedication to the brand didn't inspire me in other ways.
jgalt212 12y ago
> Mahbod is the most brilliant community creator we've seen since Caterina Fake's heyday at Flickr. -Marc Andreessen http://news.rapgenius.com/Marc-andreessen-why-andreessen-horowitz-is-investing-in-rap-genius-annotated http://news.rapgenius.com/Marc-andreessen-why-andreessen-hor... Was Marc wrong, or is Moghadam just creating the wrong kind of community?
chondos 12y ago
What would you expect from something rap related? When over half of all rap songs contain inappropriate comments and defamation of women? Why is anyone surprised here? do you think that people who write and analyze these rap lyrics should be admired?
jpwagner 12y ago
I'm not a Rap Genius user, so I may misunderstand their mission, but that text does not belong on a sincere literary analysis site, at the very least, so soon after the incident.

171 points by obilgic 12y ago

Rap is the most misogynistic genre in the history of music, it is not surprising at all that a rap enthusiast would share the views of the artists whose music he listens to.

kungfooguru 12y ago
Classic racism. Is rap really more misogynistic than rock? Or is it perceived as such for obvious reasons.
- gopher1 12y ago
  Yes, it is more misogynistic than rock.
- k-mcgrady 12y ago
  Where does zenbowman mention race? His comment had nothing to do with it. Your assumption that rappers are all of one race and that it is perceived as misoginistic 'for obvious reasons' on other hand scream racist.
  - erikpukinskis 12y ago
    Rap very obviously was created by and is to this day dominated by black people. Saying so is not racist. And zenbowman's comment can be racist without mentioning race. I might be upset because the U.S. has a black president, and say "our political system has gone to hell!" and that would be a racist statement even if I didn't explicitly spell out that my reason for thinking so was the existence of a black president.
- TillE 12y ago
  Popular rock could be crude (on a level with "Baby Got Back" or whatever), but it was rarely degrading in the way that a whole lot of rap is. I don't think that's an inherent quality of the genre, though. But it is a fact of many of the popular artists.
- middleclick 12y ago
  I really don't think this has anything to do with racism. There are rappers from every race probably. Rap is misogynistic, no doubt. Sure it has some positive sides to it (protest) but most rap today is not about that.
- 001sky 12y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misogyny_in_hip_hop_culture https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misogyny_in_hip_hop_culture Topic has its own wikipedia entry...with 71 footnotes. Edit: Sample Misogyny is prevalent in hip hop culture.[38] Overt misogyny in rap music emerged in the late 1980s, and has since then been a feature of the music of numerous hip hop artists.[2] A survey of adolescents showed that 66% of black girls and 57% of black boys believe that rap music videos portray black women in "bad and offensive ways".[39] Gangsta rap, the most commercially successful subgenre of hip hop,[40] has been particularly criticized and associated with misogyny.[7][41] Even if this subject was "simply debatable", there is at least a prima-facie case that it should not be disissed out of hand. Nor in such a careless manner.
- Pxtl 12y ago
  Okay, I think the grandparent post was a little off-base trying to lay blame at rap music, but I think he's talking about the pure surface-level content of the lyrics. I mean, the rock music scene has problems with treatment of women - both in the fandom and the bands themselves - and if you start going back to the heydey of rock music you find utterly horrifying actions, but if you're talking about pure lyrical content? It's hard to say that any genre comes close to the proliferation of mysogyny in mainstream hip-hop.
- zenbowman 12y ago
  Yes, yes it is. There's simply no comparison. http://rapgenius.com/Dr-dre-bitches-aint-shit-lyrics http://rapgenius.com/Dr-dre-bitches-aint-shit-lyrics "Bitches ain't shit but hoes and tricks / Lick on these nuts and suck the dick / Get's the fuck out after you're done / And I hops in my ride to make a quick run." This is pretty tame by today's rap standards where rape and violence are glorified. Don't excuse the violence by claiming that it is racist to point out the obvious truth. For the record, Afrocentric rap is much less misogynistic than gangsta rap, which is relatively race-neutral.
jonnybgood 12y ago
No, not really. Saying rap is misogynistic is an overgeneralization. It really depends on the subgenre which rap has many of. In the case of misogyny, it's primarily contained within the small gangsta rap subgenre, which has almost completely died out.
- onewaystreet 12y ago
  The "Gangsta rap" subgenre was heavily misogynistic, but as you say, it has completely died out. Most rap these days is about how rich the rapper is (Jay Z) or about racism (Kanye).
- YTowOnt9 12y ago
  NOT ALL RAP
  - Recoil42 12y ago
    YES ALL INDIE POP
- kyro 12y ago
  Partially agree, but you still have rap/hip-hop club-bangers with misogynistic undertones that hit the mainstream every so often by the likes of Weezy, Lil' John, Flo' Rida, A$AP, Snoop, etc.
- mjolk 12y ago
  Eminem has "songs" about literally kidnapping and murdering women. Lil Wayne and Drake have a song called "Bitches Love me." Misogyny in rap isn't "primarily contained" within a subgenre of the past.
- cmelbye 12y ago
  Almost completely died out? Have you heard Kanye's new album?
  - sehr 12y ago
    Yeezus is nowhere even near early 2000's gangsta rap, sonically or lyrically. Compare this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lc0zKB88XPM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lc0zKB88XPM To this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--824JnSx7U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--824JnSx7U
lotsofmangos 12y ago
Orchestral music over the years has probably been worse. There are plenty of celebrated female rappers, whereas Last Night Of The Proms had their first ever female conductor only last year and they've been going since 1895.
- morbius 12y ago
  There's a world of difference between patriarchy and misogyny.
  - lotsofmangos 12y ago
    As far as I can tell the main difference between a patriarch and a misogynist, is that with a patriarch the women haven't successfully rebelled yet.
    - morbius 12y ago
      Patriarchy is a system wherein women are not predominant. Misogyny is a system wherein women are subject to mistreatment. Note that I am not advocating either system, and am an ardent feminist.
      - lotsofmangos 12y ago
        Misogyny isn't a system and patriarchies don't persist for long without misogyny, for fairly obvious reasons.
        zenbowman 12y ago
        I don't believe that is accurate. There are plenty of patriarchal societies where women have high status and are not subject to mistreatment or violence, but no political or economic control.
        lotsofmangos 12y ago
pizza 12y ago
cite the source
aliakbarkhan 12y ago
http://misogynisticlyricsthatarentrap.tumblr.com/ http://misogynisticlyricsthatarentrap.tumblr.com/
- Crito 12y ago
  Since he was not claiming that only rap contains misogynistic lyrics, I am not sure what your point is.

basisword 12y ago

The only stories I've ever seen about Rap Genius have been ones which would make me never want to use their service.

frostmatthew 12y ago
Agreed. Seems they enjoy testing the limits of there's no such thing as bad publicity
- lmg643 12y ago
  even in apology ... "especially since Elliot is talking about my neighborhood growing up" ... it has a bad tone, particularly when you consider the bullying the kid faced. was mahboob the kind of guy to be part of the problem, or part of the solution?
igorgue 12y ago
Yeah, the alternatives to Rap Genius are great... sigh.
- rmrfrmrf 12y ago
  songmeanings.net has been around since I was a pre-teen and it's served me quite well. It's full of ads now, but at least the quality is good.
  - streptomycin 12y ago
    It's full of ads because it licenses the rights to the lyrics, which is quite expensive. Most lyric sites don't.
- Asparagirl 12y ago
  Oh, are the alternatives to Rap Genius attempting to profit, through pageviews and ad revenue, from re-posting the horrifically, murderously misogynist rantings of a spree killer? And then going beyond that, adding their own misogynistic thoughts to the text, as a cherry on top? I mean, that's not a real high bar there.

superduper33 12y ago

Careface

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

glesica 12y ago
Or just the market responding?
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
  - glesica 12y ago
    So a business can't act preemptively to keep users from boycotting? There are several comments in this thread that suggest people shy away from using Rap Genius because of perceived bad behavior on the part of the founders. It is quite possible that the investors behind the company (who have quite a bit of money on the line and, according to the article, were partly behind this firing) have decided that the bad publicity is taking a toll and want to minimize the impact.

mimog 12y ago

This seems like quite the overreaction. Why wouldn't an apology suffice?

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
- k-mcgrady 12y ago
  You should look at the rest of his annotations which Gawker[1] has. [1] http://gawker.com/rap-genius-co-founders-creepy-comments-on-elliot-rodger-1581469310/+nitasha http://gawker.com/rap-genius-co-founders-creepy-comments-on-...
k-mcgrady 12y ago
The co-founder of a company uses his own company's service to display his misogyny and mock a recent tragedy. He should be lucky the let him 'resign' and didn't very publicly fire him.
- mjolk 12y ago
  I assume this is cofounder privilege. If one of my employees got my business this kind of bad press, I'd lead him/her out by the ear immediately.
onewaystreet 12y ago
This was just the latest of many incidents involving Mahbod. Google his name and you will see why he was fired/resigned.
trevvvor 12y ago
A highly visible man in tech praised the writings of a mass murderer. The writings in question encouraged and led to violence against women through the viewpoint that women should pay attention to men and given men what they want all the time, along with a barrage of woman hating comments. This problem of entitlement and misogyny from societal influences is also well known, and is pervasive, in tech. Mahbod praised the writings of someone who represents problems in society that lead to violence against women. He threw in his own misogynistic comments for good measure. He's not only encouraging dangerous behavior, but adding to it. Women, both in technology and outside of it, feel a real danger because of comments like these. No amount of apologizing would have sufficed here to keep his job. I was personally disappointed that he was allowed to resign, as that's not sending the right message, which would be "this is a real problem, we acknowledge it, and we won't tolerate behavior leading to violence of women." The firing is more appropriate. However, when you have someone like that leading a company, chances are it's already worked its way into the culture. I never had a reason to use this service before, but now I have a reason to actively avoid it.

deleted 12y ago

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BorisMelnik 12y ago

I remember when RapGenius had the Google penalty a lot of folks were ranting about one of the founders and his bad behavior. Is this the same guy?

berberous 12y ago
Yeah. He has blamed some of his behavior on a brain tumor: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2507360/Rap-Genius-Mahbod-Moghadam-brain-tumor-mean.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2507360/Rap-Genius-M...
- staunch 12y ago
  Can someone tell me why this isn't a bigger part of the story? Brain tumor and brain surgery can both severely alter behavior. He could be a totally different person if it wasn't for his fucking brain cancer. I have nothing but pity and compassion for him after learning that, if it is in fact true.
  - acjohnson55 12y ago
    At the same time, if he can't contain his impulses, he probably shouldn't be helping run a company.
  - BorisMelnik 12y ago
    I do have a lot of sympathy for him as well, I did not know this. Agree with the commenter below, he shouldn't be the face of the company. If he does have intrinsic value to the company perhaps he should just do what he does best (code, design, etc) but definitely not anything PR related.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

bksenior 12y ago

Terrible comment, but for an industry built on fringe ideas and people it seems the guillotine of public or consensus opinion seems to act quicker and quick with extreme finality. I don't endorse what he said, and agree that he has down some clown'ish things in the past, but the 98% perfect of the non-offensive stuff he does gave Rap Genius a brand in a hyper competitive space and helped establish a brand. I don't know much about the internal situation at RG and can only imagine he was on thin ice if he was cut so fast, but this trend of public hanging really doesnt give much confidence in unpopular ideas being discussed in public forums.

jacques_chester 12y ago
"My guess: his sister is smokin' hot" is not really "discussing an idea". Plus it's a private company. They don't owe you or anybody tenure.
cmelbye 12y ago
This was childish, offensive annotations on a murderer's manifesto days after he killed several people. I'm sure we'd all enjoy discussing great ideas, but this was neither great nor an idea.
- moistgorilla 12y ago
  Honestly, the only thing a murderer's manifesto deserves is to be laughed at.
rmrfrmrf 12y ago
I agree, but I think it's just part of the beast. Investors don't want garbage like this (clear lapses in judgment that have little to do with the business itself) affecting their prospects of a return, and quiet discipline allows the Gawker/Tumblr/Reddit/Twitter/blog complex to spiral out of control in a positive feedback loop of outrage and speculation. And while you say Moghadam has been 98% perfect, that doesn't really change the fact that the other 2% of his behavior would have had him instantly fired multiple times over in any other setting. I think his removal will allow Rap Genius to clean up its image a bit.

bandushrew 12y ago

Calling that offensive is a real stretch, IMO. I am fascinated that it warranted a firin'

codezero 12y ago
Can you explain why you think that it's a stretch to call that offensive? I guess I would describe it as insensitive and unconstructive (to the service and the document in general)
- bandushrew 12y ago
  It is definitely insensitive, and it is clearly not constructive. I dont think that insensitive is the same thing as offensive? I must admit, I am completely failing to understand the apparent outrage. I keep feeling like I am missing something, would anyone be willing to explain it while they downvote me?
  - codezero 12y ago
    His being fired isn't necessarily in response to outrage. The current CEO explained it pretty well: that behavior wouldn't be tolerated by a community member (moderator would remove it), and if a moderator made the comment, they would be removed as a moderator. At the co-founder level, breaking community standards (and probably other issues in the past) carry higher consequences. The community standards of Rep Genius aren't necessarily the standards of any other community, though clearly there were members of the public who found the comments to be insensitive and out of line, their desire to call this out and the large response could be called outrage, but it's probably more appropriate to call it widespread disappointment. One could just go to the dictionary definition of outrage though: arouse fierce anger, shock or indignation. or violate or infringe flagrantly (a principle, law, etc.). In this case, the community standards of Rap Genius or even just the standards of the general public. I would say it meets both definitions, 1) it aroused anger and shock, in particular because it was done by someone with such visibility and done in such an insensitive way so close to the time of the actual event (this is something that is often important to consider, rage is proportional to closeness of the event, is that OK? I don't get to decide that.) 2) He infringed, and flagrantly, again, because of his visible position, and the infringement, again, is one of a community standard, which isn't necessarily defined in black and white. edit: I didn't downvote you in this thread, at the root or otherwise, and I hope that other HNers do the same, civilized discussion is the only way that these kinds of issues can be (if possible) understood. There is no universal standard for human behavior, so there will always be disparate opinions and views. My favorite twist on the Golden Rule: Do not do unto others as you would have done unto yourself; You may have different tastes. Do unto others as they would have done unto themselves.

tptacek 12y ago

This is more-or-less a duplicate of this thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7801028 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7801028

dang 12y ago
Ok, we'll weight this one off the front page, but not bury it as a dupe completely. The other discussion seems a little more substantive. (Edit: now having scrolled through both, I don't know about that.)

andrea_s 12y ago

Relevant: http://valleywag.gawker.com/rap-genius-frontman-blames-brain-tumor-for-asshole-beha-1450872105 http://valleywag.gawker.com/rap-genius-frontman-blames-brain... (2013) I'm especially liking the title's wording.

LoganCale 12y ago

That comment isn't even offensive. People get offended way too easily.

JungleGymSam 12y ago

People are too sensitive. We're basically at the point where nearly any mistake can destroy the rest of your life. e.g. "zero tolerance" in schools, stories like this, and the recently ousted CEO of Mozilla. Case in point, the amount of downvoting happening in this thread: Someone says something you don't agree with so they must be the devil incarnate. The reaction to his comments and the comments here are laughable.

csense 12y ago
> nearly any mistake can destroy the rest of your life This, this, a thousand times this. What kind of world do people think doing this kind of crap is going to create?
ansimionescu 12y ago
And yet when I suggested naming and shaming the real assholes of our industry, the patent trolls, everyone lost their shit and began defending those low-lifes. edit: downvoted again; I will never understand this community
- serf 12y ago
  This isn't the 'hacker' community to badmouth patents (or legislature within the united states, usually) I've found personally. Perhaps it's an indication of how the hackers here make their living.
iblaine 12y ago
More than likely this is the straw that broke the camels back and not a knee jerk reaction to uncommon bad behavior.
misingnoglic 12y ago
I don't know what he said, but are we really in the business of defending people who are against human rights and make jokes in the face of tragedies? These are founders and CEOs we're talking about, I wouldn't want to work with them regardless of public image.
12y ago

csense 12y ago

This comment is crass and tasteless. I guess some people never really get out of the middle school locker room. But firing somebody over this? That's totally an overreaction. People may be outraged now, but in a month nobody will even remember this happened.

Houshalter 12y ago
Almost everyone is guilty of black humor.
dagw 12y ago
I have no inside knowledge of any of the people involved but from the looks of it I'm guessing they've been wanting to get rid of him for while and decided that this was the excuse they needed.
xux 12y ago
Exactly. I've a feeling he was already on his way out, but there wasn't a clear path to do so.

norswap 12y ago

Startup founders are like samurai: quicks to fall upon their swords (or be pushed on them).

afternooner 12y ago

I can only say that this is a fitting response. From the farce of Men's Rights, PUA & brah culture to general misogyny, I'm getting a little tired of many of the youth of my gender. Has anyone seen any studies on why we're seeing this surge of ignorance?

CamperBob2 12y ago
Yeah, just look in the Greek and Roman classics sections of your local university library.
- afternooner 12y ago
  I'm sorry, I don't understand your meaning.
  - sehr 12y ago
    Young people being assholes isn't exclusive to this generation, it's just nowadays we are so connected you can see & hear them a lot more. We aren't special, it's been happening for millennia.
    - afternooner 12y ago
      It's not an unreasonable point, but I feel like this is different. Either way, we'll have to see how this turns out.
zo1 12y ago
Well one person's surge of ignorance is another person's surge of exaggerating ignorance. Perhaps you should ask the question "Has anyone seen any studies on whether there really is a surge of <something>"
- afternooner 12y ago
  My source, a leading mens rights site. http://www.avoiceformen.com/feminism/government-tyranny/gaining-momentum-the-mens-rights-movement-meets-increasing-opposition/ http://www.avoiceformen.com/feminism/government-tyranny/gain...

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

dalek2point3 12y ago

original statement in case anyone's interested: http://news.rapgenius.com/Lemon-a-statement-about-mahbods-annotations-on-elliot-rodgers-manifesto-annotated http://news.rapgenius.com/Lemon-a-statement-about-mahbods-an...

localhost3000 12y ago

Well, it was only a matter of time with this guy.

latchkey 12y ago

It's interesting to see how this founder firing was handled so much better than the guy who nearly beat his gf to death recently. In that case, the founder, VC's and board paid the girlfriend off and then tried to cover up the whole story before the press ripped into them and finally forced his firing. http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/nri/us-canada-news/Indian-American-CEO-charged-with-beating-girlfriend-is-fired-by-company-board/articleshow/34302694.cms http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/nri/us-canada-news/Indian...

bruceb 12y ago
Nearly beat his gf to death? Bad dude? Yes. But he didn't nearly beat her to death, why are you making things up?

natural219 12y ago

I hate that we're still talking about this, but this is vastly different than the Eich incident. In Eich's case, what he did happened 6 years ago, and with no intention of making it public. In this case, he's openly telling juvenille jokes in an environment with a hightened intolerance to this kind of rhetoric and behavior. After enough of these cases happen, it just gets to the point where if you don't realize the need to censor yourself, then you are not a very smart person. I, for one, am encrypting all of my communication from here out, and only telling tasteless jokes with close, trusted friends. It's sad, but you have to ask yourself if it's more important to run a major company, or have the freedom to tell tasteless jokes. One of the reasons why running a startup sounds less attractive to me by the week.

erikpukinskis 12y ago
I don't understand why tasteless jokes are so important to you. I would much rather eat a nice sandwich or go for a hike, or tell a joke that makes light of some bullshit. Tasteless jokes are about just sort of reifying bullshit. I don't understand why people want so badly for that to be a key part of their professional lives, let alone their personal lives. There are other jokes. There are other people to date. There are other experiences in the world. Why cling to these few? Especially when other people are straight up telling you it's harming them.
polemic 12y ago
> "I hate that we're still talking about this..." Well me too, but I hate it because people are still shits to each other, and we need to keep talking about it so that we're not sending the message that it's ok to be shits to each other. Yeah, you probably should only tell tasteless jokes with close, trusted friends. I don't mean "as a CEO", I mean, in general, because your tasteless jokes are probably making people feel shitty, and you might as well restrict that as much as possible. > "if you don't realize the need to censor yourself, then you are not a very smart person" Or you're not that interested in being a good person.
- natural219 12y ago
  I see no problem in exchanging harmless humor between two friends in the context of a long history of friendship and understanding that no party has any ill will towards each other or the outside world. I don't believe it's any of your business what I talk about with my friends in the privacy of my home. In fact, I find your attitude ignorant, dangerous and a little scary. I'm not saying the Rapgenius guy's joke was any funny or appropriate it at all. It honestly didn't seem that funny to me. But I don't think "making bad jokes in private" and "being a good person" correlate very well. There are other things I prioritize, like doing actual good.

argumentum 12y ago

Bummer, I generally liked Mahbod's eccentric tomfoolery. He also was extremely passionate about RG (and poetry genius & news genius).

griffinmahon 12y ago
Second this. "Passion" is most certainly the right word, and I'd be lying if I said his relentless dedication to the brand didn't inspire me in other ways.

jgalt212 12y ago

> Mahbod is the most brilliant community creator we've seen since Caterina Fake's heyday at Flickr. -Marc Andreessen http://news.rapgenius.com/Marc-andreessen-why-andreessen-horowitz-is-investing-in-rap-genius-annotated http://news.rapgenius.com/Marc-andreessen-why-andreessen-hor... Was Marc wrong, or is Moghadam just creating the wrong kind of community?

chondos 12y ago

What would you expect from something rap related? When over half of all rap songs contain inappropriate comments and defamation of women? Why is anyone surprised here? do you think that people who write and analyze these rap lyrics should be admired?

jpwagner 12y ago

I'm not a Rap Genius user, so I may misunderstand their mission, but that text does not belong on a sincere literary analysis site, at the very least, so soon after the incident.