5 ms·

The Boy Who Heard Too Much

106 points by acangiano 17y ago

asdlfj2sd33 17y ago
In June, he was sentenced to 11 years in prison What is it with the US justice system throwing the book at hackers. Is there something deep and Freudian that I'm missing?
- jerf 17y ago
  Did you read the article? Obviously, this is a rhetorical question since your quote is from near the end. But seriously, after doing all that stuff, is your suggestion that he should... what... get off with a stern verbal warning? Because that's not just hacking into the local payroll computer, "poking around", and harmlessly leaving. Those are, like, crimes. In fact, if you fill out the quote you cut off: "Last January, he pleaded guilty to two felony counts of conspiracy to commit fraud and intimidate a federal witness. In June, he was sentenced to 11 years in prison." He didn't even plead guilty to any computer-related change, though perhaps he plea-bargained them away (article doesn't say). He was warned before he was of age. What more do you want, exactly? "Throwing the book at hackers" was when you could get 400 years for (essentially) "annoying the phone companies", or get hit with a umpty millions in "damages" for hacking into a computer vaguely in the vicinity of valuable data. Or get hit with that for trying to report a vulnerability, or even just accidentally stumbling onto something. Those days are, if not over, certainly on the wane. It's not being charged with things you actually did, then convicted of them, then sentenced in accordance with that just like any other non-hacker.
  - nopassrecover 17y ago
    This is the problem with the US justice system - it's about vengeance rather than any utilitarian benefit.
    - calcnerd256 17y ago
      The threat of vengeance can provide some utilitarian benefit.
      - jacquesm 17y ago
        It may. But it may also engender more problems than it solves. Don't forget that the burden of maintaining the prison system is on the shoulders of the rest of society. America has an absolutely amazing number of people in prison at any given time, also the chances of becoming a prisoner in your lifetime border on the medieval compared to the rest of the developed world.
        endtime 17y ago
        >also the chances of becoming a prisoner in your lifetime border on the medieval compared to the rest of the developed world. That implies that the imprisoning is arbitrary, which it isn't. If you don't commit major crimes then your chance of being imprisoned is near zero.
        jacquesm 17y ago
        > If you don't commit major crimes then your chance of being imprisoned is near zero. You think so ? Three strikes law ? Minor drugs infractions ? stuff like this: http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/topless_woman_police_entrapment_sting/ http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/topless_woman_poli... Think again: http://www.swivel.com/data_sets/show/1001548 http://www.swivel.com/data_sets/show/1001548
        jibiki 17y ago
        The second link is very interesting. What crimes against "public order" are people committing? Wikipedia suggests that prostitution, statutory rape, and DUI are all in the category. (I would guess that DUI comprises the bulk of their public order crime number then, but maybe they count that under drug crime instead?)
  - asdlfj2sd33 17y ago
    I'm not saying he isn't guilty. I'm saying 11 years is a very long time. 2 or 3 or hell even 5 years in a prison full of non violent criminals. With good attention making sure he doesn't fall back into crime when he gets out, best he should have a job waiting for him in Verizon or law enforcement. And Gary Mckinnon shouldn't do time either. He should get more like detention and again best have a job waiting for him. And Adrian Lamo should have gotten a stern talking to and a job offer. Simply because these kids are brilliant, non-violent, and socially inept, doesn't mean we should be putting them jail.
    - gnosis 17y ago
      If someone broke down your door and threatened you and your family with a gun, would you call that a "non-violent crime"? That's what happened to this kid's victims. Sure, the kid wasn't personally breaking down doors and pointing the weapons, but he effectively ordered it. He is responsible for that violence. He and his victims were just lucky that no one actually got killed because of his actions, as does sometimes happen when the police invade completely innocent people's homes by mistake.
- eli 17y ago
  I agree that 11 years is stiff. I'd say he needs some serious mental health treatment more than a long prison term, but then I feel that way about many crimes. He did some pretty heinous stuff. Causing someone's house to be invaded by an armed SWAT team is no prank. And intimidating witnesses has to be taken very seriously or the whole justice system breaks down.
  - gaius 17y ago
    I don't see how causing someone's home to be invaded by a SWAT team is so different from sticking a gun in their face yourself. What if it had gone wrong and someone actually got shot? 11 years is light.
- rms 17y ago
  It's not just hackers; the US justice system has serious problems from top to bottom.
newsdog 17y ago
This guy is a completely vicious puke. He deserves everything he gets and a whole lot more. Did you read the bit where he told a woman who wouldn't have phone sex with him that he would kill her baby by flushing it down a toilet? How do you think that made her feel?
travisjeffery 17y ago
11 years is right in my opinion. He physically abused people dozens of time, in the form of FBI coming to their house and beating them up as they arrested them. Not too mention how many threats on people's lives? The immense number of malicious intended calls definitely leads to a number like 11 years, at least.
- oldgregg 17y ago
  11 years may be right, but it's certainly tragic. We're really all chubby little Weigmans-- grasping at anything for validation and meaning. When one thing disappoints us (Wow, I'm a total fail with poor hygiene and no friends...) we just find something else to give us meaning (...but at least my stock just vested!). We can always find something new to validate ourselves. But if you're a poor blind bastard with no friends and a world that thinks you're garbage, what hope do you have? Probably none, so you just pick up the phone one more time. I feel like I've heard too many stories like this lately, stories that are sad as much as anything.
- tybris 17y ago
  Americans and their weird notions of justice. No interest in solving the problem. Just hide the problem behind bars. Just give him a year, professional help and a (low-paying) job at the FBI or AT&T. Saves society pain & money and saves his life.
  - gaius 17y ago
    Modern Western penal systems assume that everyone can be rehabilitated. They are in the state they are now because that isn't actually true. In the old days people understood this, and that's what penal colonies were for.
    - abalashov 17y ago
      The modern US justice system, conversely, assumes that almost noone can be rehabilitated. At least, nobody that's committed anything resembling a serious crime.
gaius 17y ago
Kid had turned his talent to music, he coulda been the next Biggie. A man who got the girls, the money and the respect and no-one cared about his immense girth.
rms 17y ago
The acts of this individual demonstrated that he was unable to operate within the bounds of human society. 11 years is about right in relation to other sentences with the US justice system, but that presupposes that the US justice system is fair and proper. I don't believe the purpose of prison is punishment. I think the US system of prisons is cruel, unusual and close to insane. People are regularly threatened with rape in prisons and a lot of average US citizens think this is perfectly acceptable. This unconstitutional system is terrible for our society, as it churns out repeat offenders. Look at the Norwegian prison system for something that is sane. http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2008/nov/14/norway-prison-erwin-james http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2008/nov/14/norway-prison-...
- eru 17y ago
  They are not only threatened with rape.
- jibiki 17y ago
  According to the article, Norway has a mere three thousand prisoners out of a population of four million. I really don't think America (which incarcerates people at about ten times that rate) could afford Norwegian style prisons.
  - wheels 17y ago
    I don't think you can decouple the process of incarceration and the number of people incarcerated. If a functional penal system actually helps to curb society's fundamental problems rather than simply concentrating the undesirables, there's a feedback loop that affects the number of people incarcerated. In other words: fix the problem, don't just push it away.
DanielBMarkham 17y ago
This kid has major emotional and behavioral problems, and I don't think they're going away any time soon. I didn't buy into the tone of the writing, which had a lot more pity and sympathy for him than I bet his victims have. And I found his self-image deeply tied to his "abilities" -- and it probably will be for life. And I also found this kid to be a cruel tyrant, ready to use whatever abilities he had to force other people to his will, laughing the entire time. I'm not optimistic about this kid.
Hexstream 17y ago
"As he listened in on the party lines, Weigman began pressing random numbers on his phone, just to see what would happen. Once he held down the star button and was surprised to hear a computerized voice say, "Moderator on." He had no idea what it meant. But when he hit the pound key, the voice suddenly began ticking off the private phone number of every person in the chat room." Security FAIL! Would it have been that hard to require a NIP for access to that feature?! --- "If he heard a supervisor's voice once, he could imitate it with eerie precision when calling one of the man's underlings." Why can't computers do that yet? Are we close?
tigerthink 17y ago
I wonder how he kept track of all the phone company employees he gained the trust of, etc. Being blind he probably couldn't write things down easily. I also wonder if he could have avoided being caught indefinitely by keeping track of information better and taking more precautions. How long would it take a superintelligent computer to effectively take over the world with nothing more than phone access?
dvvarf 17y ago
Wired had a writeup of this guy last year. Pretty interesting: http://www.wired.com/politics/law/news/2008/02/blind_hacker?currentPage=all http://www.wired.com/politics/law/news/2008/02/blind_hacker?...
wglb 17y ago
I had a blind childhood friend who did a little "work" with the phone system (in the era of dial phones in a small rural area) and got caught making many long distance phone calls. A call by the phone company to his parents cleared the issue up. He had a much better family than Weigman, but the stress of a blind child eventually led the parents to divorce. My blind friend used to follow me on his bicyle all over town, and he could navigate down his own street, up the driveway, using the sound made by the trees to guide him. What is interesting about this article is the talents we aren't using that blindness exposes.
LegendJDT 17y ago
The Boy Who Heard to Much Video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoSRcrwFF9E http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoSRcrwFF9E

106 points by acangiano 17y ago

In June, he was sentenced to 11 years in prison What is it with the US justice system throwing the book at hackers. Is there something deep and Freudian that I'm missing?

jerf 17y ago
Did you read the article? Obviously, this is a rhetorical question since your quote is from near the end. But seriously, after doing all that stuff, is your suggestion that he should... what... get off with a stern verbal warning? Because that's not just hacking into the local payroll computer, "poking around", and harmlessly leaving. Those are, like, crimes. In fact, if you fill out the quote you cut off: "Last January, he pleaded guilty to two felony counts of conspiracy to commit fraud and intimidate a federal witness. In June, he was sentenced to 11 years in prison." He didn't even plead guilty to any computer-related change, though perhaps he plea-bargained them away (article doesn't say). He was warned before he was of age. What more do you want, exactly? "Throwing the book at hackers" was when you could get 400 years for (essentially) "annoying the phone companies", or get hit with a umpty millions in "damages" for hacking into a computer vaguely in the vicinity of valuable data. Or get hit with that for trying to report a vulnerability, or even just accidentally stumbling onto something. Those days are, if not over, certainly on the wane. It's not being charged with things you actually did, then convicted of them, then sentenced in accordance with that just like any other non-hacker.
- nopassrecover 17y ago
  This is the problem with the US justice system - it's about vengeance rather than any utilitarian benefit.
  - calcnerd256 17y ago
    The threat of vengeance can provide some utilitarian benefit.
    - jacquesm 17y ago
      It may. But it may also engender more problems than it solves. Don't forget that the burden of maintaining the prison system is on the shoulders of the rest of society. America has an absolutely amazing number of people in prison at any given time, also the chances of becoming a prisoner in your lifetime border on the medieval compared to the rest of the developed world.
      - endtime 17y ago
        >also the chances of becoming a prisoner in your lifetime border on the medieval compared to the rest of the developed world. That implies that the imprisoning is arbitrary, which it isn't. If you don't commit major crimes then your chance of being imprisoned is near zero.
        jacquesm 17y ago
        > If you don't commit major crimes then your chance of being imprisoned is near zero. You think so ? Three strikes law ? Minor drugs infractions ? stuff like this: http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/topless_woman_police_entrapment_sting/ http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/topless_woman_poli... Think again: http://www.swivel.com/data_sets/show/1001548 http://www.swivel.com/data_sets/show/1001548
        jibiki 17y ago
        The second link is very interesting. What crimes against "public order" are people committing? Wikipedia suggests that prostitution, statutory rape, and DUI are all in the category. (I would guess that DUI comprises the bulk of their public order crime number then, but maybe they count that under drug crime instead?)
- asdlfj2sd33 17y ago
  I'm not saying he isn't guilty. I'm saying 11 years is a very long time. 2 or 3 or hell even 5 years in a prison full of non violent criminals. With good attention making sure he doesn't fall back into crime when he gets out, best he should have a job waiting for him in Verizon or law enforcement. And Gary Mckinnon shouldn't do time either. He should get more like detention and again best have a job waiting for him. And Adrian Lamo should have gotten a stern talking to and a job offer. Simply because these kids are brilliant, non-violent, and socially inept, doesn't mean we should be putting them jail.
  - gnosis 17y ago
    If someone broke down your door and threatened you and your family with a gun, would you call that a "non-violent crime"? That's what happened to this kid's victims. Sure, the kid wasn't personally breaking down doors and pointing the weapons, but he effectively ordered it. He is responsible for that violence. He and his victims were just lucky that no one actually got killed because of his actions, as does sometimes happen when the police invade completely innocent people's homes by mistake.
eli 17y ago
I agree that 11 years is stiff. I'd say he needs some serious mental health treatment more than a long prison term, but then I feel that way about many crimes. He did some pretty heinous stuff. Causing someone's house to be invaded by an armed SWAT team is no prank. And intimidating witnesses has to be taken very seriously or the whole justice system breaks down.
- gaius 17y ago
  I don't see how causing someone's home to be invaded by a SWAT team is so different from sticking a gun in their face yourself. What if it had gone wrong and someone actually got shot? 11 years is light.
rms 17y ago
It's not just hackers; the US justice system has serious problems from top to bottom.

newsdog 17y ago

This guy is a completely vicious puke. He deserves everything he gets and a whole lot more. Did you read the bit where he told a woman who wouldn't have phone sex with him that he would kill her baby by flushing it down a toilet? How do you think that made her feel?

travisjeffery 17y ago

11 years is right in my opinion. He physically abused people dozens of time, in the form of FBI coming to their house and beating them up as they arrested them. Not too mention how many threats on people's lives? The immense number of malicious intended calls definitely leads to a number like 11 years, at least.

oldgregg 17y ago
11 years may be right, but it's certainly tragic. We're really all chubby little Weigmans-- grasping at anything for validation and meaning. When one thing disappoints us (Wow, I'm a total fail with poor hygiene and no friends...) we just find something else to give us meaning (...but at least my stock just vested!). We can always find something new to validate ourselves. But if you're a poor blind bastard with no friends and a world that thinks you're garbage, what hope do you have? Probably none, so you just pick up the phone one more time. I feel like I've heard too many stories like this lately, stories that are sad as much as anything.
tybris 17y ago
Americans and their weird notions of justice. No interest in solving the problem. Just hide the problem behind bars. Just give him a year, professional help and a (low-paying) job at the FBI or AT&T. Saves society pain & money and saves his life.
- gaius 17y ago
  Modern Western penal systems assume that everyone can be rehabilitated. They are in the state they are now because that isn't actually true. In the old days people understood this, and that's what penal colonies were for.
  - abalashov 17y ago
    The modern US justice system, conversely, assumes that almost noone can be rehabilitated. At least, nobody that's committed anything resembling a serious crime.

gaius 17y ago

Kid had turned his talent to music, he coulda been the next Biggie. A man who got the girls, the money and the respect and no-one cared about his immense girth.

rms 17y ago

The acts of this individual demonstrated that he was unable to operate within the bounds of human society. 11 years is about right in relation to other sentences with the US justice system, but that presupposes that the US justice system is fair and proper. I don't believe the purpose of prison is punishment. I think the US system of prisons is cruel, unusual and close to insane. People are regularly threatened with rape in prisons and a lot of average US citizens think this is perfectly acceptable. This unconstitutional system is terrible for our society, as it churns out repeat offenders. Look at the Norwegian prison system for something that is sane. http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2008/nov/14/norway-prison-erwin-james http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2008/nov/14/norway-prison-...

eru 17y ago
They are not only threatened with rape.
jibiki 17y ago
According to the article, Norway has a mere three thousand prisoners out of a population of four million. I really don't think America (which incarcerates people at about ten times that rate) could afford Norwegian style prisons.
- wheels 17y ago
  I don't think you can decouple the process of incarceration and the number of people incarcerated. If a functional penal system actually helps to curb society's fundamental problems rather than simply concentrating the undesirables, there's a feedback loop that affects the number of people incarcerated. In other words: fix the problem, don't just push it away.

DanielBMarkham 17y ago

This kid has major emotional and behavioral problems, and I don't think they're going away any time soon. I didn't buy into the tone of the writing, which had a lot more pity and sympathy for him than I bet his victims have. And I found his self-image deeply tied to his "abilities" -- and it probably will be for life. And I also found this kid to be a cruel tyrant, ready to use whatever abilities he had to force other people to his will, laughing the entire time. I'm not optimistic about this kid.

Hexstream 17y ago

"As he listened in on the party lines, Weigman began pressing random numbers on his phone, just to see what would happen. Once he held down the star button and was surprised to hear a computerized voice say, "Moderator on." He had no idea what it meant. But when he hit the pound key, the voice suddenly began ticking off the private phone number of every person in the chat room." Security FAIL! Would it have been that hard to require a NIP for access to that feature?! --- "If he heard a supervisor's voice once, he could imitate it with eerie precision when calling one of the man's underlings." Why can't computers do that yet? Are we close?

tigerthink 17y ago

I wonder how he kept track of all the phone company employees he gained the trust of, etc. Being blind he probably couldn't write things down easily. I also wonder if he could have avoided being caught indefinitely by keeping track of information better and taking more precautions. How long would it take a superintelligent computer to effectively take over the world with nothing more than phone access?

dvvarf 17y ago

Wired had a writeup of this guy last year. Pretty interesting: http://www.wired.com/politics/law/news/2008/02/blind_hacker?currentPage=all http://www.wired.com/politics/law/news/2008/02/blind_hacker?...

wglb 17y ago

I had a blind childhood friend who did a little "work" with the phone system (in the era of dial phones in a small rural area) and got caught making many long distance phone calls. A call by the phone company to his parents cleared the issue up. He had a much better family than Weigman, but the stress of a blind child eventually led the parents to divorce. My blind friend used to follow me on his bicyle all over town, and he could navigate down his own street, up the driveway, using the sound made by the trees to guide him. What is interesting about this article is the talents we aren't using that blindness exposes.

LegendJDT 17y ago

The Boy Who Heard to Much Video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoSRcrwFF9E http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoSRcrwFF9E