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> soldiers for Jesus' or whatever it is they do in the 'Jesus Camps.' I have seen that on TV but never in real life. Those people exist somewhere, likely in T

by gscott 17y ago

> soldiers for Jesus' or whatever it is they do in the 'Jesus Camps.' I have seen that on TV but never in real life. Those people exist somewhere, likely in Texas and I almost forgot, Pentecostal churches are like that. People have different needs I suppose, I find that sort of thing a little too intense. > $DIETY's followers are there to help pick you up and tell you that $DIETY is the meaning of life while they help you out. That was my expectation. In real life people just want the items you are giving out (from doing food programs, etc) Religion (whichever it might be) is something you have to live as a core-set of values that make up yourself (I do a bad job myself) and when you do well, other people are interested, and when not, not so much. People who go on TV, tell everyone what they shouldn't be doing, then end up doing the exact things they said people shouldn't be doing, were not living it. You will never find the people living it on tv because they are far too busy. People on TV are out for self-glorification but people have free will. I am more of a Methodist liking person, it is boring (and as such draws a more senior crowd but) Wikipedia sums it up well (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Wesley http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Wesley) "Under Wesley's direction, Methodists became leaders in many social justice issues of the day, including the prison reform and abolitionism movements." Imagine there are 20,000 Churches in the United States. Here are some of the outside items the church I go to does, http://www.foothillsumc.org/Ministries/Outreach/default.aspx http://www.foothillsumc.org/Ministries/Outreach/default.aspx, just times that by 20,000. Now magically erase all sorts of religions. Now try to replace that with government workers. It can't be done. Everything serves a purpose, just because you don't like it doesn't automatically mean it's all bad.

sho 17y ago
The arguments you make are flawed, because you are caught up in the mindset of "religious people == good people, therefore if there are no religious people, all these good, necessary things will not get done". This is demonstrably untrue. People remain generally good even when they are not fooled into being so by tales of an magical space god, and all those things are covered, as can be seen in every other rich country on earth. In fact, they are generally covered a lot better, so if you actually care about the plight of the needy you should be trying to get churches out of the charity business.
- gscott 17y ago
  That is the deal, in the "fairy tale" Jesus didn't go find the best guys, he just went out and found whoever was available. That your porn loving, upskirt looking, money loving, not so pretty self is destined to do more then spank the monkey, visit strip clubs, watch tv, and play video games is a suprise to most people. They don't know that they can change the world yet be broken themselves at the same time. Many people feel they must be perfect first (which is impossible) before they can go out do whatever they are drawn to (in the positive).
  - pyre 17y ago
    On the other hand, preaching about how adulterous behavior is a straight ticket to hell and all adulterers need to be hanged while being MEGAadulterer in the background tends to hurt your cause.
    - gscott 17y ago
      Makes for good testimony if the person gets back on the straight and narrow though. The part about going straight to hell, all sin is the same but repenting of what you have done (adultery, steal a pack of gum, whatever) is the ticket out of the dark place and back into a place where you can be of some benefit to others. It is hard to be a person who can make a difference and be a person who steals packs of gum at every opportunity. A person who is repenting but is falling short, that person is still in good enough shape to do whatever (work charity for instance) one can't expect to always be repenting and falling short for the same thing though. Luckily once one major sin is taken care of there is usually another big sin to work on next.
      - pyre 17y ago
        I was leaning more on the 'preachers' that talk about how people that aren't perfect are going to hell, and make all sorts of 'fire and brimstone' sermons... and then they get caught spending the collection plate money on a gay prostitutes. Also similar are those 'televangelists' that end up spending all the money they collect on a mansion, expensive cars, and hookers.

by gscott 17y ago

sho 17y ago

The arguments you make are flawed, because you are caught up in the mindset of "religious people == good people, therefore if there are no religious people, all these good, necessary things will not get done". This is demonstrably untrue. People remain generally good even when they are not fooled into being so by tales of an magical space god, and all those things are covered, as can be seen in every other rich country on earth. In fact, they are generally covered a lot better, so if you actually care about the plight of the needy you should be trying to get churches out of the charity business.

gscott 17y ago
That is the deal, in the "fairy tale" Jesus didn't go find the best guys, he just went out and found whoever was available. That your porn loving, upskirt looking, money loving, not so pretty self is destined to do more then spank the monkey, visit strip clubs, watch tv, and play video games is a suprise to most people. They don't know that they can change the world yet be broken themselves at the same time. Many people feel they must be perfect first (which is impossible) before they can go out do whatever they are drawn to (in the positive).
- pyre 17y ago
  On the other hand, preaching about how adulterous behavior is a straight ticket to hell and all adulterers need to be hanged while being MEGAadulterer in the background tends to hurt your cause.
  - gscott 17y ago
    Makes for good testimony if the person gets back on the straight and narrow though. The part about going straight to hell, all sin is the same but repenting of what you have done (adultery, steal a pack of gum, whatever) is the ticket out of the dark place and back into a place where you can be of some benefit to others. It is hard to be a person who can make a difference and be a person who steals packs of gum at every opportunity. A person who is repenting but is falling short, that person is still in good enough shape to do whatever (work charity for instance) one can't expect to always be repenting and falling short for the same thing though. Luckily once one major sin is taken care of there is usually another big sin to work on next.
    - pyre 17y ago
      I was leaning more on the 'preachers' that talk about how people that aren't perfect are going to hell, and make all sorts of 'fire and brimstone' sermons... and then they get caught spending the collection plate money on a gay prostitutes. Also similar are those 'televangelists' that end up spending all the money they collect on a mansion, expensive cars, and hookers.