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Alcohol as a social technology to check the trustworthiness of others
- cup 12y agoI think the author has made a number of errors in there post and seems to gloss over the numerous social problems that arise from alcohol consumption. Th reason Alcohol is consumed by a significant portion of the population is because its a drug that society doesn't perceive as a drug. It carries all the negative physiological and social effects other drugs have but it doesn't carry the negative association of being what we consider 'a drug'. Yes It's a form of social lubrication and it might be pleasant to consume but its efficacy as a form of verifying trustworthiness is tenuous as best. Most high functioning alcoholics would be able to maintain an air of trustworthiness which is why alcohol itself can be such a destructive force. It's interesting that alcohol is explicitly banned in Islam You could use the approximately 1.1 billion muslim(probably closer to 500-800 million practicising) population as a control abstaining group and look at whether communities that consume alcohol have a higher propensity to trust each other or not. Edit: At the end of the day I think regardless of any philosophical debates the simplest answer might be that people consume alcohol because being drunk feels good.
- ekianjo 12y ago> banned in Islam You could use the approximately 1.1 billion muslim It's not because it's banned Muslims don't drink it. At least in some places. I have a friend who made numerous trips to Saudi Arabia, where the Muslim Law is supposed to be at its strictest form, yet you just need to drive out of town to find alcohol and access to other forbidden forms of pleasure. It's just like if you said "so they banned prostitution so it does not exist anymore". People always find ways to access things they want to get.
- cup 12y agoI'm confused. Muslims don't drink because it is banned. Some Muslims drinking doesn't distinguish from the fact that its banned, just like some Muslims who murder people doesn't mean Murder isn't banned.
- ekianjo 12y agoI don't think you understand what I'm saying. I was referring to the fact that in Saudi Arabia, it's not a super niche minority drinking alcohol. It's readily available, and everyone knows where it is.
- nemothekid 12y ago>Th reason Alcohol is consumed by a significant portion of the population is because its a drug that society doesn't perceive as a drug. Thats a rather modern view for a practice that may be as old as humanity itself. Your comment doesn't explain why Alcohol was popular when cocaine and other opiates didn't carry negative associations.
- chrischen 12y agoThe other drugs are addictive.
- bignaj 12y agoNot sure if you are being serious but... ever seen http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcoholism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcoholism ?
- rosser 12y agoIt turns out, alcohol is actually more addictive than nearly all of the "other drugs", and it's one of the only drugs for which the withdrawal symptoms can be fatal.
- chrischen 12y agoI'd love to read the research on this.
- cup 12y agoCocaine and other opiates have been popular, only recently have they been sidelined.
- downer73 12y agoYeah, gee, I wonder why? Maybe it's because one has a tendency to induce heart attacks, and the other group is treacherously addictive. But, consider that cocaine is a "new world" drug, specific to the South American continent, as an indigenous herbal extract, mostly until the 19th century, when highly purified extacts became a popular part of western society. Meanwhile use of opiates dates back to ancient times, given that Opium is dead simple to produce. But again, it was really in the 19th century when good equipment, and precise measuing tools permitted chemists and drugists to purify highly addictive perparations of the wider variety of drugs. Prior to that, the poppy's medicinal qualities were known and used, but expertise and well-crafted instruments which could readily facilitate powerful extracts weren't as widespread. Otherwise, people were limited to whatever was grown locally, and would be required to cultivate and harvest their own supply, instead of relying on trade.
- IvyMike 12y ago"I don't trust anyone who doesn't drink" is a politically incorrect but still pretty common sentiment. Edit: I think I'm getting some "shoot the messenger" downvotes. Whether or not you agree with the statement, I maintain that a lot of people feel this way.
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- onewaystreet 12y agoYou're making a lot of assumptions. There are a lot of people that just don't like the taste of alcohol. (Specifically beer).
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- saraid216 12y agoThis is my case, and it's actually frustrating for me. I'm not interested enough to force myself to acclimate, the way most people would have done in college due to peer pressure. So I'm stuck with either being the entertaining freak when coworkers go out for a beer, or being anti-social. The irony of being a freakish social outcast amidst a group of nerds is not lost on me.
- mattgreenrocks 12y agoI started on cocktails and eventually found craft beer I like. It takes time. But, yeah, I've been the non drinker. People don't know what to do with you, and they get annoyed. They project things onto you (like judgment), and don't even try to understand your motivations. It sucks. Groupthink is powerful and pervasive, and nerds have no problem adopting it if it suits them.
- Alex3917 12y agoThe CIA spent millions of dollars researching truth serums and didn't find anything that reliably worked. While I think the author is partly correct, this is probably a function of set and setting in addition to pharmacology.
- jmnicolas 12y agoI think If they found something reliable they wouldn't say it. But considering their extensive use of water-boarding you're probably right.
- blibble 12y agoalcohol is part of society simply because having low levels of it in stored water killed pathogens. as well as preventing your entire medieval village of dying of cholera, this technology also permitted long ocean voyages (it's said that the Pilgrims only landed at Plymouth Rock because they ran out of beer). now it's entrenched and not going anywhere.
- rdtsc 12y agoIn Eastern Europe it was (is, maybe, I haven't been there in a decade now or so), a social lubricant for _all_ the occasions. Birthday parties, any holidays -- state, unofficial, religious. Any business deal or venture. Birth of children, deaths, graduations. Celebrating buying a new car. Visiting someone for the first time. etc...etc... Any one of those are a reason to drink alcohol. Not just a reason to drink it, it is suspicious not to. Yes, it can be very mentally demanding to not drink. There is a constant barrage of offers (Oh just have a little shot. Just taste it. We are drinking for the health of so and so). I have family members back home that struggle with alcoholism. Those that are struggling are able to handle it pretty much just by avoiding most such functions. Cousin so and so is having a party? -- "Yeah, I'll just find some excuse to not go, as they will drink themselves stupid and I can't handle the nagging". Stuff like that. You go to visit someone for the first time, and you refuse a drink, that is borderline an insult to host. You gotta tell them it is under strict doctors' orders to get out of it. "It looks like you have a hangover? No problem. Guess what the cure is? -- Yap. More alcohol in the morning.". Stuff like that.
- andyl 12y agoWhere I grew up in Michigan: exact same thing. As a kid the omni-presence of social lubricant was great! But the cost grew over time. Many of my friends and family killed themselves with drink and drugs, and some others were wiped out by alcoholism.
- cageface 12y agoIt's like this in SE Asia as well. Socializing pretty much always implies drinking. It's a struggle for me because I've never really enjoyed drinking and I've found that as I get older it takes me longer to recover from it. Even a few drinks now and I have trouble sleeping well and I'm mentally fuzzy the next day. This is not conducive to writing code at all. Hopefully one day Cannabis will mostly supplant alcohol as the social drug of choice.
- ekianjo 12y agoNot just SE Asia, Japan, Korea, pretty much as well. > Hopefully one day Cannabis will mostly supplant alcohol as the social drug of choice. No thank you. I don't like smoke. I'd prefer tea or coffee.
- kimonos 12y agoGood insights!
- blackhole 12y agoOh great, now my desire to not cause brain damage to myself makes people think I have something to hide. wonderful.
- logicchains 12y agoI'd argue it can also be used as a social technology for testing people's tolerance of values different from their own. If I say I don't want to drink but someone keeps pushing me to anyway, I don't bother pursuing any kind of meaningful friendship with them, as why would I want to be friends with someone who wouldn't respect my values?
- IvyMike 12y agoIt kind of works that way from the other side too. Any group has a set of "norms" that, if you deviate from them, it's hard to belong to the group. Go to a heavy metal concert wearing a pink shirt, or a linux conference wearing a tie, or (some) churches wearing shorts, or the 1980's without parachute pants, or any one of a million other things. So if there is a group where social drinking is the norm, when you reject that norm, you stand out. This is not always fatal to group membership but it usually makes it harder. Seen in this light, in some contexts, someone pushing you to drink may actually trying to be say "I'd like you to be a member of this group", and while you see them as not respecting your values, their motivation is trying to help you belong. (Hackers as a group tend to claim they reject the concept of "norms" although my personal take is that they just have a different set of norms.)
- pdonis 12y ago> someone pushing you to drink may actually trying to be say "I'd like you to be a member of this group" And my response (like that of logicchains, I expect) would still be "No thanks, I don't think it's my kind of group". So the signaling works fine both ways.
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- stavrianos 12y ago> More likely people don't tell as convincing lies when they're drunk. This is literally in the first sentence.
- russellbeattie 12y agoDrinking makes me suicidally depressed, so I stopped many years ago and have witnessed as a result this exact phenomenon. The new neighbor, coworker, potential partner or aquaintence are all super friendly and welcoming until the first time there's an opportunity to get drunk with them, and you don't (no matter how politely or subtly you demure). After that, the relationship fades. I've seen it time and again. It's annoying, but I've accepted it as reality now. I do get frustrated at how it inhibits my career - it's basically impossible to build a strong network without drinking (or at least is to me. Maybe you're some super gregarious teetotaler, but I'm not) and without a strong network you naturally lose opportunities both personally and professionally. If you can drink without issues, I'd highly recommend it - you'll have a happier, more successful life.
- pdonis 12y ago> If you can drink without issues, I'd highly recommend it - you'll have a happier, more successful life. I think this depends on your definition of "happy" and "success".
- collyw 12y agoActually as a drinker, I always envied the way smokers got to network in the workplace. I started working at the same time as a smoker. I was generally more extroverted than him, but he ended up knowing way more people in the company than me, because of his cigarette breaks.
- michaelochurch 12y agoAlso, shared embarrassment and nostalgia. When you go drinking with someone and both make fools of yourselves, you now have a mutual trust built on knowing things that most people don't know. That's also the purpose of hazing rituals in fraternities: you've seen each other do disgusting things, so you trust each other. Then, there's the nostalgia factor. Being drunk is moderately interesting but it seems to have a high rate at which it produces nostalgia. Even though the after-effects are (for me, anyway) sufficiently bad to counteract any pluses of drunkenness, the sort of nostalgia on which business connections seem to be build is enhanced with alcohol. I don't know why this is, but if I had to guess, I think that Timothy Leary's "8 circuits of consciousness" theory is, at least to this, relevant. Alcohol causes regression into a childish, emotionally volatile state. It's a time-travel mechanism. It allows people to instill in themselves an illusion that a connection goes back farther in time (and is therefore deeper) than it actually does.
- patio11 12y agoIn Japanese business culture, being in one's cups is a socially acceptable excuse for saying virtually anything, regardless of e.g. relative social status or non-desirability of the message. Accordingly, many of the really important messages internally and externally are passed after hours with a beer in hand. (Incidentally, people will even treat you as being drunk even if you're only sipping coke, because it is mutually socially important that you be seen as being drunk. I mean, after all, you couldn't possibly verbalized that complaint to your boss while being sober, right? So clearly you're drunk.)
- harisenbon 12y agoTangentially, I've seen "Nomu-nication" (Nomu "to drink" and Communication) be a central part of almost all business in Japan -- both internal and external. One experience I had with my Osakan clients always stood out to me -- I've met multiple businessmen who say they won't make a deal with a vendor they haven't gone drinking with, because the alcohol shows what kind of person they really are.
- mercer 12y agoI think alcohol serves a similar function at least here in Western Europe, albeit less obviously. I've noticed that many people 'act' drunk well before they are. Having a beer in hand is permission to let your guard down a bit. I mostly approve, but a danger I've found is that people can get stuck in it, even if they don't necessarily become alcoholics.
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- steamn 12y agoFunny you mentionned Japan. Staying 'cool' while getting drunk with Japan's manager of my previous employer landed me a CTO position in Japan. He was saying it was a proof that I was a reliable person.
- tomcam 12y agoThat's a whole lot of words to replace "In vino veritas". Also explains why teetotalers like me are sometimes considered suspect.
- leephillips 12y agoFrom the Maltese Falcon: Kasper Gutman [to Sam Spade]: I distrust a man who says "when." If he's got to be careful not to drink too much, it's because he's not to be trusted when he does.
- fred_durst 12y agoI will very much second this one. That said, there is something for shy people. They sometimes think they have something to hide when they actually do not. So it can be a little bit of a bad tell if you don't realize it can sometimes be a lack of self confidence as opposed to a need to hide something.
- TTPrograms 12y agoUh, isn't this an objectively ridiculous statement? If you never said "when", you would overdose and die. If he's got to be careful not to drink too much, it's because he doesn't care to die.
- mattgreenrocks 12y agoIt's not just ridiculous, it encourages a lack of self-control so as to appear trustworthy. It also highlights the modern dilemma: should I be a person of integrity, or can I just appear to be one so I can reap most of the rewards?
- coned88 12y agoI could see this. I am somebody who has never drank, never done any form of drug or anything like that. Completely straight and narrow. I assume most people don't trust me.
- dschiptsov 12y agoIt seems that Slavic cultures are founded and based on an collective alcohol consumption. So many men cannot even go to bed with a woman (especially wife) without getting drunk first. And those almost "religious and mystical" visions Slavs are having (and later proudly telling each other) within onset of delirium.. So, please, don't teach a Slavic about booze.)
- fit2rule 12y agoI recently faced a mutiny/mobbing/uprising. One of the key differences between me and 'them' was the amount of drinking going on. I've come to realize that drunk programmers are just doing their jobs.
- mrxd 12y agoInteresting idea, but the neurobabble bits don't really add much. Everyone knows alcohol makes people less inhibited, so do we really need to cite the fMRI data first?
- iandanforth 12y agoInteresting! Powerful! But why? It's a novel thesis, but not too novel as to seem unfamiliar. It provides a simple solution to an age old problem. How can I know if I can trust someone? Just get them drunk! Secretly, of course, I'll remain sober enough to judge their sincerity. It also ties together two enjoyable drives. Domination in business and drink. The presentation as revelatory give us the feeling of being in on something important and the allusions to an ancient culture gives it weight. Finally we are drawn by the notion of technology. This is a tool that we should be using to our advantage. Moral considerations are dispelled by the (popular) allusion to our brains mechanistic nature. I applaud the author but this is pure HN linkbait.
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